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tube amp shoot-out

To follow the complete thread, see "tube amps $2000-$3200 below." Here are the results of my amp shootout from last weekend. I had at home the Conrad-Johnson MV60SE, the Rogue Stereo 90, and the Manley Mahi-Mahi monoblocks.

The Rogue, in short, I found silky (my listening partner's term, but it fits) but dull overall. The bass was thick and undistinguished. Plenty of energy on rock and pop (I admit to being a less particular listener in that music), and sorted things out reasonably on most classical music, but the presentation was just kind of disinterested. That's not a very clinical analysis, I know, but it was the overall impression.

The C-J sounded simply gorgeous on everything I played. Never ran out of steam on even the largest orchestral/choral music, every instrument true to life--with the exception of some of the natural air that surrounds voices and instruments in live performance. That's mainly what I missed: a certain amount of sparkle to the sound.

The Mahi-Mahi had all the sparkle and life that the C-J lacked. I really loved this amp--and the little monoblocks look sparkly as well. Vocals were stunning, chamber music was mesmerizing and sucked me right into the performance. I played this amp in both triode and ultralinear mode (as I did with the Rogue; the C-J came factory-set in UL mode), and which sounded better depended on what music was playing. The great failing of the Mahi's, for me, was in orchestrl music, which it really didn't seem to be able to handle very well. It didn't sound like it was running out of steam, just gave a confused presentation. Instruments were sometimes unidentifiable, multi-layered textures were clouded. Since I'm an orchestral conductor, this was an insurmountable problem for me, and quite depressing, because I loved everything else about this amp. One other exception: After a certain volume level (and I'm no head-banger), the sound got a bit glaring, which didn't happen on either the Rogue or the C-J. Is this what people mean by "tube glare"?

So the overall winner would be the Conrad-Johnson, because it had many virtues and did nothing at all wrong. But I didn't buy any of them. I guess I really want the life and love of the Manley, with the control of the C-J. I wonder, for another $2000, do the Manley Snappers have all that???

My system:

Nottingham Interspace/Dynavector 20X-H
Sony XA20ES cdp
Rogue 99 pre/phono
ProAc Response 2.5 speakers
Cardas/MIT/Analysis Plus cables

So, still looking! Hope to bring home a Cary Rocket 88 and the Rogue M-120 or M-150 monoblocks in a couple of weeks.
kmikey
tpsonic
1,092 posts
 
Give Terry/Steve a call,at Western Reserve Audio Design {216-521-0900}.They have an amp available for audition with money back guarantee {150w/ch auto-biased kt-88s,formerly the iTube design}.My former employer compared it against the CJ 140s and felt it was a better amp.Terry is your man,give it a shot.
kurt_tank
1,189 posts
 
Welcome to the audiophile club. You have discovered what all of us have discovered, is that audio equipment is all about compromises. As the equipment gets better (and usually more expensive!), the compromises get smaller. But, the compromises never really go away, they just get smaller and smaller until as some point, they become almost irrelevant.

By the way, have you checked out the Music Reference 200?
(This was one of the tube amps I researched heavily, before finally deciding that tube amps were not for me after all.) They go for about $2k, used.

My two cents worth anyway.

Good Luck in your search.
sbank's avatar
sbank
3,378 posts
 
If you can check out used Atma-Sphere M60s, you might find a winner that would nicely drive the Proacs. The Air Tights are nice, but you might need to spend more to get something with enough power. Cheers,
Spencer
kmikey OP
4 posts
 
Tpsonic: Thanks for the tip. Any kind of website--photos, all that? (Aesthetics matter to me, greatly.)

Kurt: No news to me! I'm afraid I've been in the club for longer than I ever intended to, and my bank account shows it. It's a matter of how much money to spend to minimize the compromises!

Haven't found any used Music References yet, but if I end up seriously considering the Snappers, they're in the same price range. Why did you decide that tubes were not for you?

Sbank: Thanks for the tip. I'll look them up.

Kevin
kurt_tank
1,189 posts
 
In response to your question:

I have a friend who has an incredible stereo system.
(Avalon Eidolon speakers, ARC Ref. 1 preamp, Aesthetix Rhea phono preamp, VPI HRX TT, with Koetsu Urushi cartridge, and a Opus 21 cd player.) He and I have tried several tube mono blocks to augment his Classe CA401 (400wpc) SS amp. He tried the Kora Cosmos (100wpc), the Bat VK-150 (150wpc), the Manley Neo Classic 250 (250wpc) and the VTL MB-450's (450 wpc). (Lucky for me, I got to listen to them all!)

They all sounded great, but his speakers, like mine (I have the Revel Studios), are somewhat difficult to drive to realistic sound levels. This meant that all but the VTL's, did not have enough power to drive the speakers without clipping. (The Manleys almost made it, but they did clip, albeit gently, on a very large symphonic piece at very loud levels). Therefore, he settled on the VTL's.

Now, note the prices on these amplifiers, even used they are between $3,000 and $5,000 minimum. (Not counting the cost of retubing them, which is substantial). While I could afford that, maybe, I could not afford to do what he is doing, which is keep both his solid state amp and have his tube amps. He needs to do this because we live in California, where is gets pretty hot. (Neither of us has air conditioning either. Our priorities are stereos, not creature comforts like AC!)

We did a fair amount of auditioning of these amps late at night, with the windows open. Nighttime temperatures was in the 60's. Except in his dedicated and rather large listening room, where after only a few hours of listening, the temperature reached the mid to upper 80's! We were both sweating pretty good. (Good thing we had cold beer on hand!) Anyway, he now uses the tube amps during normal to cool days and uses the solid state amp on warm to hot days.

Now, my house is even hotter than his, since I live on a mountain ridge with a southern exposure. I can not afford to install AC in my house (it is an older house, and it would cost a small fortune), and I don't have the money to own two sets of amps. Therefore, I have decided to keep my Mark Levinson No. 23 (200wpc) amp. It sounds great, but maybe not quite as good as his tube amps. But then again, I'll sacrafice that little bit of sonics for a 20 degree cooler listening enviroment.

I know, this was a rather long winded response, but now you know the reasons I keep my SS amp, rather than switching to tubes. (Besides, to be perfectly honest, I was not dissatisfied with the Levinson amp, I merely wanted a change. I'm sure you know how that goes!)
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