Review of Dartzeel NHB-108 Amplifier

Howie,

First of all I am not in the music business, I am in the music reproduction business. I design speakers and music playback systems.

I am not applying science to music I am applying science to music reproduction. And because I care a great deal that the artist intentions are preserved I'm not so arrogant to believe that what I think feels right is good enough! A conductor once told me that " the creative process stops when the CD is caste. Your equipment can not make my performance better it cannot interpret the music...if you're lucky you might actually hear what I intended but that's only if the system is good enough and you're educated enough."

Your argument does not apply to me and is simply a way to elevate yourself into the creative process. As if selecting the correct component somehow makes you enlightened and that a "musical" system is some magical beast that only the "enlightened" can appreciate and own. Can we not measure the beast? In your mind no...because it is your fantasy and not a reality. A Unicorn

Some how my methodology seems to offend the "enlightened" because it scrutinizes their decisions and holds them to a standard that they are offended to be measured against. And I'm not implicating anyone in particular, this has just been my experience. And being held to a standard is problem for those who are too intellectually lazy to attempt some personal education to actually grasp the technical strings that helps them tie them to the recorded performance. No trial and error is the methodology of choice for the "enlightened". They engage in alchemy and consult wisemen for guidance and yet they may have been to the promised land yet weren't educated enough to know they were there. And no measurements left behind to help them find their way back if they realized they've gone to far.

Your Bill Evans example only proves my point, critical listening can be done by anyone. Its the easy part. Its easier to have an opinion than it is to be educated on the subject. The subject being music reproduction.

Cinematic_systems writes:

Some how my methodology seems to offend the "enlightened"

Your methodology does not offend.

Regards,

Interesting Mike,

Yeah I'm trying to get my ducks in a row, I was definitely turned around about which speaker you were talking about.

The Midi Exquisites should give you some bass extension, I suspect that the effort made to keep your room flat will work against a speaker designed to work in a "normal" room. You have a falloff where a normal room would have gain.

That 80hz suckout probably was minimized due to the 2 woofers per speaker being in different locations. The single woofer on your 1B's would give you a more focused dips about the room.

The Dartzeels won't be a problem on the VSR's for obvious reasons but I suspect they are struggling in your environment, due to the complex impedances of the speaker and the room. In room the Midi Exquisites seem a bit boomy to me. And should give you some sense of extension. But the impedance of the Kharma in the bass could be below three ohms and swing to 70, The Dart doesn't have the current to get on top of that."

Midi's rating by Kharma as down to 22hz and the 1D's rating as down to 25hz this doesn't compute. my conclusion is that the 1D only truely goes to around 30hz in a typical room......"

Depending on the bass loading of the port can rolloff very steeply and bass can disappear very quickly and maybe even sound a bit stunted. The Midi seems to have a true 4th order port which gives a more gradual decay of the bass, infact the port seems tuned very low as to create a shallower bass rollof, which is why there is a slight dip in room from 40 to 25.

Thanks for the response.

Stenersr: Your personal experience with C_S is not really the point here. I have no doubt that in a personal relationship he might be entirely different. Especially if he is trying to make a sale. If you look at his past posts he has a real history of attacking everything and usually provides nothing positive. Most people are here to share their experiences with equipment. That I respect. When someone denegrades equipment all the time, that is obnoxious and controversial. Some people feel "God like" when they are typing on a keyboard. As a matter of fact, he has been described to me as a complete lunatic who I should not waste my time with by a mutual friend of ours.

You are an engineer and hence measurements are important to you and I completely understand that. Sean and C_S throw measurements around as if those are the only reasons to buy equipment. How many times do we read a review where the measurements were poor but the reviewer loved the product, or the measurements were outstanding and the sound was not to the liking of the reviewer? Bob, would you buy something just because it measured great without ever listening to it? Or, would you buy something that you heard that sounded great without ever reading how the measured?

My basis for responding to C_S was that he was taking pot shots at Hooper and his system. He talked about the Jena Labs cables as if he had them in his system many times, which to my understanding, he did not. He and Sean both make irresponsible comments about "stranded cables". C_S states; "Smearing the leading edge, it's an old cable tactic, perfect for overly bright edgy audiophile systems." Sean states; "Any multi-strand braided cable is going to have some amount of smearing to it".

To imagine that a cable capable of extending from DC out to beyond 30 Mhz could smear frequencies that low in the bandwidth is ludicrous. The cables "measure" brilliantly. There are cables that, through the use of resistors, roll off certain frequencies, but these resistors do not exist in Jena Labs cables. I have never heard Jena Labs cables "smear highs". I have used them with 100's of amplifiers, preamplifiers and source equipment. I have had more brands of cables through here than I care to count and cannot ever recall hearing a cable that showed the "old cable tactic" that C_S accuses Jena Labs of using.

C_S and Sean have never heard Hooper's system, nor do they have an idea of the sound that Hooper has. C_S heard the prototype darTZeel amplifier in a show with equipment he probably did not know and came to a conclusion on the product. It is no better than walking into a room at a show and listening to a system one has never heard and saying, "Wow, those power cords sound great, but the speakers are bad".

Sean makes statements about what the amplifier sounds like, without ever hearing it based on what he read somewhere that said something about "quality of parts used" without actually mentioning what those parts are and what he percieves the "design parameters" to sound like.

Sean also mentions:

"There are design aspects of the VR 9's that i really like ( sealed cabinets ), but for the money involved, i'm thinking that they could have made some very simple yet sonically important changes to them. The use of Solen caps instead of something a little higher grade, the 80 Hz crossover frequency for the single subwoofer driver, which is mounted on the rear of the cabinet, etc... are all things that i would have done differently."

Sean how many speakers have you built? Any critically acclaimed? Who are you to pass judgement on someone like Albert Von Schweikert and his design without ever listening? Have you heard the speaker? Again, you attempt to show everyone how much you know and try to impress them with capacitor name dropping or repeat something you read somewhere. You did this with the darTZeel amplifier, Jena Labs cables and know the Von Schweikert VR9SE's. Solen caps are excellent in the right application. Maybe the best around. In other applications, maybe there are better choices. Cost of parts had absolutley no influence on what was used in the VR9SE's. This was a "no holds barred", "cost no object" design. The fact that there is a Solen cap in the speaker reflects that it was the best capacitor for the use it was intended. There are also other much more expensive caps used in different areas. It only depends on what sounded best.

Attacking me through Mike Lavigne's post and impuning his credibility, shows how desperate you are with your "conspiracy theory".

Sean, if you have any direct experience with any of the equipment mentioned in this thread, share it. That would be productive and worthwhile. But, constantly targeting me and those who have dealt with me is getting tiresome and is highly unproductive. Most of us are adults here. I do not believe anyone voted you "defender of all". Audiogon has moderators to chime in when they feel it necessary. As I stated earlier... get a life!

gentlemen,
the twists and turns of this discussion have truly been amazing!
stepping outside the debate, i can truly attest to one obvious conclusion: you all, to a man ,deeply love music! [as do i ]
therfore,do not belittle yourself with accusations,rude remarks, supposed conclusions, etc...
this forum benifits from discussion, but not at the expense of civility! [no matter how cleverly concealed"between the lines "]
as a musician and layman i would just remind you all that your goals are the same; your path on how to get there is indeed your own, and the happiness derived from this will be different for each of you in your on "musical reality"!
i have had the good fortune to correspond with jtinn and mike lavigne and found them both beyond reproach and gentleman at times when they had every reason not to be! as for the others on this ever evolving thread, your points are well taken and provide additional insight as to framing the "gestalt" of this hobby.
that said, let's all take a step back and remember a simpler time in each of our lives when ALL these items mattered less then just the honest pleasure of listening....