2. amps-preamps
  3. 1093208542

Tube Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - Rogue Zeus/VTL-MB450

Hey Audiogoners,

First post to A-gon and I need your advice! I've researched this site extensively, read thousands of your threads, and purchased good product through you folks. So here goes.....

Bought a used pair of Maggie 3.6Rs -absolutely love them! [Chose over ML Odyssey, Ascent i (also liked), Maggie 1.6] They're accompanied w/Supernal tweeters and an AMC B1-20 sub. I'm upgrading my stack from ss to tubes. Caught the addiction! Having listened to tubes while auditioning e-stats/planars, I've concluded that they just make the sound more "real life" -at least for my taste (go to alot of live shows). I just love that sound!

Also picked up a used VTL 2.5 tube pre-amp along with the 3.6s. Had no prior knowledge of VTL. The 2.5 presents a beautiful large deep soundstage (3D), brings everything to life, sounds tubey -not overly tubey. I've heard some pre-amps I like better (Viva Linea), but at a much higher price point.

So, I want to upgrade two things -Amp and CD

Amp:

Having had such good experience with VTL, I'm tempted to pick up a used pair of VTL-MB450s (at half list), never having heard them. Also considering Rogue Zeus (used)-listened through modest set of electronics/speakers. The Zeus is so powerful that it actually carried the entire system. Bass is tremendous -best I've heard in a tube amp so far. Could have been a tad more articulate in the mid/highs, and didn't present a deep soundstage, but I'm tending to attribute these limitations to the electronics/speakers that accompanied the setup. My sense is that the Zeus could power my 3.6s very well, and drive them to their potential. Zeus is also very well made. Liked the warm standby switchable mode as well as built-in tube biasing. Knocks -it's So friggin' heavy (even more of a monster in real life), & pumps out a ton of heat. Definitely an Uber-amp.

Is there anyone out there in Audiogondom who has listened to both the Rogue Zeus AND the VTL-MB450, and can give me a real life comparison???.....

Other products I've auditioned ...to give a sense of my listening tastes (please DO NOT BE OFFENDED as I'm not trying to knock a brand of gear you may own; it's all good):

ASL Hurricanes - listened opposite Zeus, w/better electronics/speakers. Found them to be more articulate (tubey) in the mids (real nice), lean highs, definitely light bass (compared to Zeus).

Jolida 3000 monos - sounded decent w/3.6s. Tad syrupy. Definitely not the bass slam/quickness of Zeus. Good sound none the less.

Sim Audio Moon W-5 (I know it's ss, but comes highly recommended with the 3.6s) - listened while auditioning Metronome tube CD (w/Moon stack, Triangles). The whole setup disappointed me. The sound was flat, not dimensional. Maybe it was the setup. I'm still stumped.

Can't find Wolcotts in my area. Haven't auditioned VAC.

So, VTL-450 or Rogue Zeus? And why?

Second question, CD.

Tubes?

I really like the Shanling 200 sound, but have heard consistently horrible stories (from 3 of 4 dealers) about reliability. Heard they've addressed firmware issues, but still leary about dropping bucks on a unit with double digit failure rate.

Others...
Metronome CDv2 demo - just sounded flat an uninspiring (maybe it was the system).
Jolida 100 modified - sounded good; lively, crisp, warm but not too tubey.
AMC DB6 modified (with an AMC DAC9 modified) - decent, but not as articulate or sweet as Shanling, not as crisp as Jolida, and didn't seem all that well built. I do like the DAC9 by itself though.
Eastern Electric Mini Max -good for the money, well built, but simply can't compare to Shanling sound.
Audio Research top loader -didn't enjoy w/Krell stack
Musical Fidelity 308 -beautiful crisp highs; maybe should audition w/tube stack.
Wadia 861, McCormick ($3K) -just didn't enjoy them

So, I'm stuck. I like the Shanling sound, but not its Word Of Mouth reliability.

Any other suggestions? Next on my audition list is the Cary 308t. Remember, I'm looking for that warm, lively, beautifully finished sound -but not too analytical.

Sim Audio Moon Eclipe? Rega Jupiter? Other?

Thank you folks.
angelsmtn
angelsmtn OP
12 posts
 
Can anyone provide a comparison between the VAC Phi 220s and the VTL MB450s?
douglas_schroeder
3,281 posts
 
Greetings, There is no question that any Maggie is going to "come alive" with gobs of power. I have the 1.6's, and I thought I had good sound running a Threshold T-50 (50w class A). Man was I wrong! Lately I bought a 5 channel Outlaw at 200wpc. For fun, I bi-amped each speaker, for a total of 800w on the 1.6s. I was astonished, flabbergasted, etc. And the sound became much more tube-like, smooth,etc.
Also, you may want to consider the impact of interconnects. I have switched to the new Audioquest dbs line, and the Maggies have taken another leap in sound reproduction.
Frankly, I was going to consider tube amps in the future, but all the postings are reinforcing my concern; any kind of economical tube amp won't cut it for driving Maggies.
I would suggest you do a demo at home with at least 1000w of power running into your mains prior to making a purchase of tube amps. You might possibly obtain best results bi-amping at about 300wpc.

have fun; aren't these the best kinds of problems to have?
artar1
159 posts
 
For a CD player try a used Musical Fidelity NuVista 3D ($3700), a Musical Fidelity TriVista ($6,500), or a Krell SACD standard ($4,000).

To add slam to the Maggies, try a pair of Vandersteen 2wq subwoofers or a pair of Cambridge Soundworks Newton P-1000s. These subs are very fast, cheap, and blend very well.

I would choose the VTL MB-450. It has enough power. Call Stereo Unlimited in Walnut Creek, CA to discuss that combination. They sell Maggies and VTL.

How did you like the sound of the Jolida JD3000A? How was the build quality?
alun
181 posts
 
What about some of the ARC monoblocks? I have a stereo D250mkII with 250 tube watts, I am certain it could drive nearly anything and to my ears bettered Krell 700watt monos. These can be found relatively cheaply but are a beast to retube and ship.
rooze's avatar
rooze
584 posts
 
Where do Magnepans peak as far as power is concerned?
I just tried the Carver ZR1600 with the 3.6R. I started off using 2 Carvers in bridged mono version, running biwired. These amps double their output when impedance is halved and are rated 1600w into 4 ohms. If I'm understanding this correctly, with my biwire configuration, each amp is seeing a 2ohm load, and therefore putting out 3200 watts per channel(potentially)!!
After getting a handle on the sound for a few hours, I changed over to one amp in stereo running biwired, which, according to the spec's is now 800 watts per channel. I couldn't detect any advantage between stereo with one amp and bridged Mono with two. Stage width and depth, bass extension etc appeared to be the same.
So at some point the speakers seem to peak, in terms of giving them 'as much power as possible'.

My previous amp was a Krell FPB200, outputting 400w into 4 ohms. I can't honestly say at this point that the Carvers 3200 watts 'opened up' the speakers any more than the Krell did. There is a small issue of break-in, since the Carvers only have about 30hrs on them, but I haven't heard any real noticable changes over the past 10 hrs or so. The Krell offered all the 'grip' that the Carvers do, and if anything, the stage width was a little wider with the Krell. Bass control and extension is similar, which is a remarkable achievement given the Carvers sticker price compared to the Krell.

So the question is, at what point do the 3.6's stop benefitting from more power?
The point/context of the question is: shouldn't a 450 watt tube amp like the VTL be enough, (delivering 500 watts into 4 ohms), if, as it seems, the speakers stop benefiting from more power somewhere around the 400 - 500 watt range?
What I'm trying to do is convince myself that the 450w VTL's will be man enough to handle the Maggie's, and that more watts are not really necessary.
How good a job am I doing of pulling the wool over my own eye's....help!
More to discover