2. amps-preamps
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Can HI FI components really make music?

Hello everyone. I am posting this question possibly a bit early but I am getting frustrated and am about to throw in the towel, sell everything and buy a Bose wave radio and call it good. My question is does a good HI FI system ever really sound like live music? At this point I think not. I have been in this hobby for about 7 years and just can't seem to get there. Even the system at the local "hi end" dealer does not come close to live music. My system has evolved over the years to the following:

Wadia 861 CD
VTL MB 125 mono blocks
Supratek Chennin Pre
(2) Vandy 2WQ subs
Vandy 3A Sig
Cardas Golden Cross inter con
Kimber Bifocal XL spk cable
Vandy model 5 Xover

All this gear is in a 13x35x8 room. Although the sound is quite good. Better than most any other system Ive heard it still has a long way to go. In all fairness the 3As are not completely broken in but I dont think they will improve to the extent I want them to over the course of the next 30 hrs. My dealers solution is that I should get rid of the Supratek and replace with a VTL 5.5. I dont think so. Been there done that. Although the VTL is decent it cant compete with the Supra.

At this point I think maybe the VTL 125s are just not sophisticated or powerful enough to give me the sound Im looking for. I think they are the weak link along with cabling. I stated earlyer that the dealers system doesnt do it for me either and I think that may be due to the fact that their biggest amp is 185 wpc. Im thinking maybe a sophisticated amp with say 400 wpc might get me there with the 3As. I dont know... but I am not willing to spend 100K to what I want nor could I afford to.

For those of you that are still with me any and all input welcome. I am not one of those thin skinned audiophiles that cries like a baby when someone has the audacity to insult their precious gear. So fire away.

Thanks
braro
c5150
115 posts
 
Then I guess ....it's over then.

But let me know if that little voice is still talking to you in a few days and saying...."what if that lonely ,little obnoxious,crazy ,lazy ,good for nothing, nut job was right" Give me a buzz

later dude.

At least you didn't become hostile towards my weirdness.This speaks volumes about you....You are ready for IT
cdc
1,826 posts
 
I strongly agree about Avante Garde Duos and SET. The horn colorations are obvious but they have magic in their musical presentation. They do not have any better dynamics than a regular cone speaker. Based on my listening I think this is a myth. Yes, they can play loud but their dynamic range = difference between loud and soft is no different than, say, B&W or Opera speakers. You'd need Quad ESL's for better micro dynamics but they don't play loud like the Avante-Garde's.

Staying on the "audiophile" track I liked ATC active 100's which have very dynamic bass and can play 115dB all day.

But if it was me, I'd go with a good full range single driver speaker with no whizzer like Bob Brines Fostex FT-200 speaker. You can't get high SPL and good sound for the most part. Also most speakers that play loud can't play soft. It's either one or the other.
If you ever lived with a good single driver speaker you be surprised:
* time and phase coherent.
* sound from point source.
* No change in voicing as with multiple drivers of different materials.
* Excellent PRAT.
* No crossover to add distortion, coloration, absorbs power and the dynamic range of music. As Bobby Palkovic at Merlin said, even adding one capacitor to the x-over creates audible nasty sound.
So the first thing you notice is no bass, no loud volume level, lack of detail, especialy in the HF. Wow, you say, this speaker sucks. But live with it for a while and you get over the audiophile traps and realize real musical satisfaction does not come from these things. My experience anyhow.
braro OP
87 posts
 
Newbee, I have switched everything in my system around trying to figure out where the channel varriation is coming from. Im fairly certain its the room. Not all frequencys are different in the same way. I dont have the chart in front of me so these are not the actual numbers but it goes something like this:

R at 100 hz + 6db
R at 150 hz - 6db
R at 15 khz + 12db
R&L at 200hz same

etc.

My room is in the basement. Luckily it has an 8' ceiling but there is a step. Directly above the listening position is the entrance to the upstairs, a sunken entry which results in a bumb in the basement ceiling. This bump extends out from the right wall about feet and is about 8 feet long and 15" deep. Could this bump be causing some problems along with the fact that the wall the speakers are on is not perpedicular to side walls. I talked about it in earlier post.

Cdc, I never said any speaker sucked. I chose the 3As because of the speakers that are available for me to demo they were the best for the money. Thats why I bought them.
newbee
4,768 posts
 
Bravo, I'm not sure how to interpert your measurements. Are you saying that (1) the right channel at 100 hz is +6db over a 1K tone measured on the R speaker or a 1K tone measured on both speakers, or (2) 6db over the L speaker output?

One thing to consider in making measurments/adjustments in the mid-lower bass response is that much (but by no means all) of the info there is mono. Rather than focusing on the difference between each speakers output below 200 hz I would look at the summed output of both speakers. Also, consider that most of the balance issues are more apparent from tones in the mid range and highs, so while your might have an imbalance in the lows (between speakers)if the summed output is balanced with the upper frequencies you might never hear it.

In general the corresponding node and null at 100 and 150 hz suggests to me a problem which might be curable by altering the speakers or listening position, however if this ratio is close to the same no matter where you place your speakers and/or chair it is a room problem. You would want to fix this either by using appropriate bass traps or a good parametric equalizer. A 12 db swing is going to be very audible. BTW this could be a result of your rooms construction.

That 12db rise at 15kz is not likely to be related to your room - it could be the equipment used to make your tests or it could be a problem with your electronics or speaker. You could easily check this out by using a process of elimination in switching electronics and speakers one piece at a time.

What are the other measurements between 1k and 15k for the right speaker and for the left speaker? IMHO, your balance problem is more likely because of disparate speaker response, or untreated reflection points, some where between 500hz and 5000hz than anywhere else.
cdc
1,826 posts
 
"In all fairness the 3As are not completely broken in but I dont think they will improve to the extent I want them to over the course of the next 30 hrs."
But you don't seem to be happy with them.
"I am not one of those thin skinned audiophiles that cries like a baby when someone has the audacity to insult their precious gear."
Okay, but I never even mentioned anything about your speakers being good or bad.
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