music , mind , thought and emotion

I'm not sure, detlof, who you were talking about when you said there was too much talking :0). Yes, there was, but I get tired of every time something gets a little more complicated, digging for a shiny thing with fingernails bare, someone jumps out from the bushes with some Zen garble or "Jesus in their pocket" (...love that one!). I apologize if I offended you (assuming that I did because you have yet to respond to my above inquiries, which I think have "some" merit). Basically, hadn't heard from you, thread went dead for 4 days, only Oz replying, so didn't think you'd mind a "stir of words". Did you want "prettier" words, words like water, words that feel like the music you long for? Ones where you could more easily intuit the Search, or that it is still there?

Back to thinking:

So, if music is found in silence, then how could we talk about it in words at all? Are words always a "harsh clamor" upon an experience of the Truth/Music/Beauty? Are we left with poetry, or poetics, or poetic-sounding words?

Music does not just happen in silence, although deeper meanings can be found there. Music is found both in the silence and the notes which arise from that ground; Truth is found both in the Silence and the thought-notes which arise from that ground; "beauty" is found in them both and in all things and thoughts because all things and thoughts, and notes, arise from that Silence. Yet, by saying "silent" I create not-silence. In doing so, is the world split asunder, me from It?

Do not make the Silence "grave" as if it is holy and only holy, somehow apart from the notes and words. It is not the holy Other. That is what St. Augustine told you so he could sell more seats (bless his soul...).

Words carry "propulsion" and move minds; notes carry "propulsion" and move minds.

The notes are not separate from the Music; the Music is not "grave" and the notes not. That is its own subtle split. Neanderthal saw the sky and made it the Other sky, a "grave" force to be appeased with fire and hearts (and which BTW lead to some engrained archetrypal lens...do you see that lens?)

Truth is found in the notes and the Silence.

Truth is found where you look for it.

The world is oscillating (can you feel it, the notes chaotic as post modern predator mind finds his mirror in medieval predator mind, the meekest minds of animals withering...?) and human minds that are so moved - see the black vault of descending sky - want to hear the poetics of the silence, as their last sauve, so tired from the nihilism, from the words, from what yawns, so I leave them to that, heads down.

A break from audiogon "thinking" is on order.

Did you hear that? A leaf fell, damp ground, the wind.

Adieu, my friends

Asa, you write beautifully! I've never seen One like you!

"The only non-attachment that a Bodhisattva has is one towards saving all beings from suffering, even while not being attached to it ; desire without desire, search without search = non-search/non-desire/non-dual."

"Do not make the Silence "grave" as if it is holy and only holy, somehow apart from the notes and words. It is not the holy Other."

Asa, look at the two quote of yours. Aren't they the same meaning?!

I am willing to break my word for getting back into the "thinking" as you stated. Just to say: "I heard..."

Regards

Asa, music is not so fragile that it can be found only in silence. Words are ways to organize thoughts -- we can debate whether words free or enslave them (I'd argue for both). Why wouldn't words help, not harm, the understanding so long as we don't rely on them alone? "Creating non-silence" disturbs only the silence, not the totality of perception.

Of course, maybe I misunderstood. But generally, I have to agree with Detlof that words are necessary (even thoughts are couched in the structures of words though feelings are not).

Oz, maybe I misunderstood detlof myself, because I agree with everything you just said, which, I thought, was what I just said!! Oh well...

I read detlof's comment, "silence, where music happens" to mean that music, impliedly, does not occur where silence is absent, namely, when notes are going on (or words). In conjuction with his negative take on "talking", this seemed to be a reasonable interpretation. Maybe I didn't get it, though (wouldn't be the first time...)

Maybe what he was saying was that the "way" we were using words was "enslaving" the Truth (the analogy: discordant notes getting in the way of falling into the beauty of Music).

OK, I can get that, but here's something interesting...

I'm always rattling on about solid state, saying it has distortive aspects that keep you from falling into the music. Now, if detlof was saying the same thing about how we were talking - our distortive "Jesus in pocket" talk was getting in the way of talking about the Silence - then that means that while I've been decrying SS distorions in components I've actually been creating more here on threads!!

Seemingly ironic, until you consider....

This thread was DEAD. Yes, Oz had said some beautiful things about the surf and patterns, but notwithstanding detlof's many questions, the responses went dead for four days - usually terminal on a subject like this. So, unless detlof meant his questions to be answered in the silence he talks of - highly doubtful given the number of probing questions posed - that means that the recent allegedly discordant words have actually been catalyzing dialogue. Because, if I'm not mistaken...

detlof is back, Oz is here, 6ch is happy and behaving himself, Gregm has just said some penetrating words, and

we are together, again, talking about the music that we love (and love to share the thought-words on)and the thread is going on, like the notes of Music...

So, effectively, were the words "discordant"? As we are apt to say, isn't the proof in the pudding (or, listening?)

Hmmmm.

Friends, sorry, didn't mean to offend. Life is too noisy at them moment, all thoughts get drowned in the din.