Why "Cryo" anything?

Ok. I am baited into posting with another answer. Since I started, I might as well finish it.

Cello,
I believe this is a "tech talk" forum. I thought this is the place to discuss about the science/technology behind the product. I was looking for a reasonable theory for an audiophile "fab". I purposely did not post the question in cable forum for that.

Whether I hear the difference in a "cryo" CD does not prove or disprove the possible theory.

Lugnut,
I received my MSE from Stanford University in 1996 and BS in electrical engineer and MSE double major from UC Davis in 1994. For the last 8 yrs, I have been working as a process engineer in a semiconductor capitol equipment company working on CVD product. So most people would say that I have a ok background in thermodynamic, electrical engineering principles, plasma physics, semiconductor physics, gas dynamic, metallurgy and associated process treatment.

I think that's enough background to post a likely theory and ask a question about "Cryo" treatment on audiophile product.

Having a shoot-out means very little to this discussion. There is nothing wrong with subjective listening test. I do all of my purchasing based on subjective listening test; however, it has very little to do with science.

Eric J Liu (feel free to look it up)

I mentioned the martensite transformation for one very important reason. It is a "diffusionless" phase transformation..in other words, the change at the atomic level, from a face centered cubic crystalline structure (FCC) to the body center cubic one (BCC) will occur without the need for specific atoms to migrate within the structure. So, all the atoms are there, they just re-arrange a tad. As the metal is cooled, the driving force that makes the structure change to BCC eventually is large enough that the changes occurs.

Diffusion based transformations on the other hand, do indeed require heating, so that the atoms have enough energy to move about to where they want to be..a good example is that of a "cored microstructure" like copper-nickel, where initial solidification is around particles of one alloy, and subsequent solidification has a gradient of alloy content..this structure requires heat treatment to homogenize the overall material. BTW, all of this stuff is in Barrett, Nix, and Tetelman.."The principals of engineering materials",Prentiss Hall, 1973..

Obviously, for a cryo treatment to work, the transformation would have to be a diffusionless one.. Since cryo treatments are shown to be effective for modifying macro properties for many disciplines, one can certainly make the argument that there are many different diffussionless reactions out there.

For wires, I certainly cringe at the thought that the metal undergoes some "magic transformation" which somehow makes it easier for the electrons to glide through the lattice, and certainly would expect to measure any such change as a change in resistance. Plastics, on the other hand, are more difficult to brush off..

CD's and cryo for example..I'd look at:

1. Does the process stress relieve the plastic, making the disk flatter as it is spinning? (the internal stresses of a spinning disk will be slightly different from one at rest).
2. Does the process help re-arrange surface atoms in either the reflective layer or the poly surface?
3. Does it alter the optical properties of the poly by surface re-arrangement?. or, perhaps some diffusionless transformation similar to martensite?

I would assume that all these could be easily checked by checking the end result...bitstream comparison of two cd's, one cryoed..

Bill..a distinction must be made between intelligence and work experience..I have some experience in the cryo world..but thanks for the kind words...

Cheers, John

John,
For martensitic formation to occur, steel needs to be heated well above room temperature first. That temperature will depend on the composition of the steel. (how much carbon and other metal additive and etc) Again, a heating cycle is needed.

For a reaction to occur, a driving force is needed. (physical force, thermal, elctro-magnetic and etc) Reducing the temperature certainly will not provide that driving force.

This brings up another theory for me. If you combine cryo treatment with some kind mechanical machining at the lower temperature, you can potentially change the micro-structure due to internal stress difference and mechanical force; however, this is not what I have understood about today's Audiophile "cryo" technique. From what I read in the brochure, it's dipping the desired object in a cool solution.

Eric

Yes, you are correct in part. In order for the transformation to martensite to occur, austenite is indeed required..and that is obtained by heat.

What is more important, though, is the fact that it is a diffusionless process, one that does not require heat treatment for it to start..it requires the driving force, which in the case of the change from austenite to martensite, is not an increase in temp, but a decrease to below the martensite start temp.

The fact that cryo is indeed used to alter the macro properties of any material means that one is using a diffusionless process..and, it does not necessarily require a pre-treatment to higher temperatures first..The argument that all metal objects require heat to actually form them, before one can cryo them, is just a semantic one. There are processes that do not require the end manu heat them prior to cryo..

But, a diffusionless process does not require a heat precursor, but instead, use the internal lattice forces being created by the cooldown..that is the driver force..not heat..

Some quotes:page 311, same text..

"T3 is so far below the equilibrium transformation temperature Teu, that the driving force for FCC austenite to transform to BCC ferrite is enormous.....

"The diffusionless transformation by which (greek symbol meaning austenite phase, no html codes here) decomposes to martensite takes place by a complicated shearing of the () lattice. Each atom moves only a small distance relative to it's neighbors, less than one atomic distance. Consequently, thermal activation in the sense of vacancy motion or solid state diffusion is not required for the formation of martensite.

Since martensite formation is a diff. transformation, it cannot be supresses by quenching and, irrespective of time, a certain amount of martensite will form at a given temperature...the amount of martensite that forms at a given temperature will increase with increased cooling...at a temp Tf, all the austenite will have transformed."end of quotes..

So, clearly, the diffusionless transformation equilibrates at any temperature between the start and finish temp. If the object is, at a later date, taken down to a lower temperature, more martensite will form..this will continue until all the austenite is gone...

Now, the real question, is...is this type of diffusionless process possible with plastics?..I don't know.

Cheers, John

Is this some kind of set-up? Nobody dips anything into a cool solution. Almost everyone knows cryo treatment is a two-day affair. This is some sort of joke, right?