2. tech-talk
  3. 1067066163

Stereophile confirms new gear is getting worse....

It appears that "high end" audio gear is moving backwards rather than forwards. If you doubt this, take a look at the November 2003 issue and the test results of the electronics reviewed.

As a case in point, the Pass XA160 mono-block amps that were reviewed perform pretty horribly. While most folks that read these forums know that i'm not shy about being a fan of Nelson Pass' work, i don't have much good to say about these over-priced boat anchors. Most will probably remember what a hard time that i gave the PS Audio HCA-2. In effect, most of the comments that i made about that amp apply to this amp. From what i can tell, the comments that i made about the PS may not be strong enough as compared to how poorly the XA160's performed, especially at the price. Lack of current output, high distortion figures, non-linear frequency responses, the ability for the loudspeaker to modulate the output of the amp, etc... were all evident in the test results. To top it off, the input and output impedances will make this unit quite sensitive to the components ( preamp, speakers, etc...) that it is mated with.

Regardless of who's name is on this unit, how "pretty" it looks ( gorgeous ), what it weighs (200 lbs per monoblock) and the parts quality inside, quite honestly, this unit performed like a really crappy "vintage" ( read that as "low tech" ) tubed unit from the days prior to audio civilization. All this "eye candy" and a sore back for only $18K a pair !!!

As we move to the next product review, we look at the BAT VK-51SE. While this unit was more consistent than the Pass, some of the design choices made are obviously not good ones. The most obvious flaw that i see with this unit is that it changes sound / tonal balance as the volume is varied. Even when the gain control is adjusted for the flattest response, the top end starts sloping off gradually above 5 KHz. As you increase the gain, you now introduce low frequency roll-off into the equation also. If really standing on the throttle, the unit doesn't even make it down to 100 Hz within a -3 dB tolerance window !!! Obviously, this is not very good or linear and is poorer performance than one would expect out of a "reasonable" pair of speakers, NOT line level components !!!

As such, you can't expect consistent sonics from this unit unless you listen at one gain setting. If you have only one source component and all your recordings are of the same intensity, you "might" be able to find a reasonable setting. Since i highly doubt that this is the case, especially the part about consistent volume from recording to recording, you can pretty much count this out.

On top of the variations that this unit produces on its' own, one can introduce a whole new gang of variables into the equation once you start factoring in input / output impedances into the equation. I'll just say that this unit isn't going to be very versatile in terms of what components it mates up with in terms of amp selection. All this "high tech performance" for only $8500. Make that $9000 if you want the convenience of a remote.

Moving a few pages further, we run into the "giant killer" AH! Njoe Tjoeb ( pronounced "new tube" ) 4000 cd player. This is a highly modified / hot-rodded Marantz unit with tubes added, a "super clock" and the option of a "plug & play" upsampling board, fancy footers and an upgraded power cord. Depending on what you want to spend, the base unit is $700. If you go for the unit fully loaded with options, you can feel your bank account drained to the tune of about $1200.

Take one look at the frequency response of this unit and you'll see that it is far from "neutral". To top it off, distortions are higher along with a lack of suppression of AC harmonics. Jitter is pretty high for a unit with a "superclock" i.e. higher than other units i've seen with no "superclock". As such, this unit doesn't appear to be a "killer" of any type other than being able to "flatten your wallet in one swift motion".

Obviously, "high end" has come full circle. That is, it would appear that "audiophiles" are more concerned with asthaetics and reputation than actual performance and fidelity. The folks that used to laugh at Bang & Olufsen are now falling for looks at an even higher price. While the sonics may differ from Bang & Olufsen, the end result is that none of these units are "accurate" or capable of being called "high fidelity" units any more than Bang & Olufsen gear of yester-year was. The fact that B&O are now trying to jump back into "high end" with some truly innovative products just goes to show that one can't judge a company or product by its' cover any more.

Having said that, the above mentioned products can't really be called "Hi-Fi components". What they can be called are "flavoured audiophile toys". The funny thing is that J. Gordon Holt had commented on this type of situation arising within the industry and there are letters in this issue agreeing with that point of view. J. Peter Moncrieff also talked about that in IAR Hotline 76-80 quite a while back and found it rather pathetic. Count me in with that crowd too.

I do have to credit JA and the guys for having the guts to print these test results. While there is plenty of "dancing" in all of the reviews along with more than enough "gushing" ( the Pass review in specific ), it was pretty obvious that JA really DID make mention of the technical problems that each of these products displayed. As usual, Stereophile remains consistent in the fact that they continue to test, measure and display the results for all to see. For this, i offer a very hardy pat on the back, vigorous hand-clapping and whistling. THANK YOU from all of us that like reading and interpreting spec's for ourselves. Having said that, JA still tried to down-play these flaws somewhat by giving the "old soft shoe" at the end of his technical comments.

As i've said before, one has to buy and use what they like and makes them happy. With all of the various and BLATANT "flavouring" that is going on with audio gear nowadays, one really must know what they want and how well components will blend together in their system. It would appear that the days of trying to achieve "accuracy" and "musicality" with with each piece of gear are over. Now audio is kind of like Baskin-Robbins i.e. you've got to know what you like before you order what are VERY specific "flavours" for each product selected.

Let the buyer beware.... Sean
>

PS... I've got my flame repellent armour on along with an oxygen tank and a full battery of weapons. After this post and the responses that i think i'll get, i know that i'll need all of that and maybe more : )
sean
kehut's avatar
kehut
668 posts
 
Sean-

Regarding the Stereophile confirmation that new gear is getting worse.....Please remember and concider this from a magazine that is also "getting worse." A lot of us who have been in Audio for a while can probably agree that back in the mid 80's and early 90's Stereophile was hot on the list of mags that covered the Audio scene very well, with Names and articals written that were great. In the last several years, such is not the same and seems the quality of the mag has deteriorated to the point of "ho-hum". Now Im not sure its all about the lack of good hi-fi components to review and get excited about, or the lack luster effort they put forth today compared to the earlier days...Just something to concider... FWIW..I let my subscription expire last year and dont miss it one bit!
clbeanz
192 posts
 
will catch up on this hot thread later.Wanted to post this concerning what Jax2 mentioned earlier,that Stereophile has not done negative review.Anyone remember few years back the review on Velodynes stand mounted mini-monitor review that lost Stereophile the ad account to Velodyne?Stereophiles response was classy to say the least.
sean OP
6,231 posts
 
Ultraviolet: Each one of the systems that i have is very different yet quite similar to each other. I'll suffice it to say that these systems were all built to their listening environment. That is, i'm not trying to cram 10 lbs of material into a 2 lb bag. For that matter, i'm not expecting one gallon of paint to cover the entire house either.

In English, i've got small speakers and electronics in smaller rooms and bigger speakers and electronics in bigger rooms. Most, if not all of the gear, has been modified to some extent. This was done in an attempt to make it both more "accurate" and more "musical". To be quite honest though, not all of these systems are built to the same standards or use the same quality of components. I simply can't afford to do that.

On top of that, the speakers are all quite different in design and implimentation. Obviously, each design brings with them their own strengths and weaknesses. I've tried to work with those strengths by utilizing them in specific installations and minimize the weaknesses by avoiding situations that they aren't well suited for. Given that i'm not expecting the same level of output from each of these systems, they have been optimized for the range of operation that they are most used for. I think that if more people took this approach i.e. built a system around the room / speaker interphase and the acoustics / listening preferences that they have, they would be a lot happier in the long run.

As a side note and being a bit of a "collector", i've got tons of other gear that i'm currently not even using. This is not to mention that some of the gear that i was running not that long ago is now gone i.e. "out the door". Some of this is due to profitable offers from others that wanted it more than i did and some of it is due to the fact that it did not perform as i expect it to, even after modifications. With that in mind, i'm not above "trashing" or pointing out the flaws in a product, even if i currently own it or have owned it in the past. The fact that i like Pass designed gear, and have stated this publicly many, many times, yet took them to task for the poor performance and quality control of one of their "latest and greatest" products further reinforces that i'm not about playing "favourites" or promoting a specific agenda. I try to call it as i see it, even if it means ocassionally stepping on the toes of my own personal preferences.

What i am about is quality, consistency and design integrity, regardless of price. Given that prices are going up and quality, consistency and design integrity seem to be going backwards in a lot of high end products, i would hope that you can understand where i'm coming from and why i started this thread. After all, when a manufacturer jumps on a plane, flies across the ocean to hand deliver a product to a reviewer, and that product is dead within 24 hours, what does that say about the state of "high end" and the products that are getting raved about? To me, it says that a random sample off the production line is probably going to be even worse and less consistent. Sean
>
zaikesman
3,017 posts
 
Just a point of defining our baselines for discussion (to which rebuttals are welcome): I noticed some responses above seeming to imply that maybe companies like those taken to task here for making products which don't measure the way some people think they ought to for the money, did not devote sufficient engineering time and resources before releasing half-baked gear. Although this might happen from time to time (and although many products do get 'upgraded' after their introductions), I'm much more inclined to give companies like Hovland, Pass, or Legacy the benefit of the doubt (for good or for ill), inasmuch as I tend to assume that their products' performance, both audible and measured, is entirely the intentional result of deliberate design choices made by competent and careful professionals, whose reputations and future livelihoods are understood to be on the line with every product introduction.

Ultimately, you can't go very far for long selling only the equivalent of fancy faceplates and colored lights in any business, and I don't think a quick buck is why most designers get into audio (possibly excepting some in the cable field), whatever one might conclude about their performance priorities or degrees of native talent. There's probably room to argue about assessments of the prevailing level of basic design competence and/or the depth of the talent pool relative to past eras, but to me it's overly cynical to suspect a widespread, shoddy disregard for anything besides short-term profits in such a risky, tough, and fanatical business as audiophiledom. In short, I'm willing to grant from the start that most designers believe wholeheartedly in their products, and strive to make what in their opinions are the very best they can for any given design brief and price point. To sometimes disagree with the results is one thing, but it's another to suggest that those responsible either don't know enough, or even worse, really know better. Ours is a marketplace that encourages diversity, and that includes appearances, prices, and meausured performance as well as sonics ; if that seems to be in conflict with 'objective' notions of accuracy and value, then it was probably ever thus.
sean OP
6,231 posts
 
Zaikesman: Pass knows better and i think that they had a MAJOR problem with quality control. This doesn't speak too highly of them though. What would have happened with the amps that were already out in circulation if nobody had measured / caught these problems? Would the owners have been "good enough listeners" to tell that there was a problem and send them back in OR would they have simply sold them thinking that "Pass ain't all that it's cracked up to be", putting more "junk" ( albeit "expensive junk" ) out on the used market??? Even though Pass stepped up to the plate to correct the problem and admits the flaw, this kind of situation leaves a bad taste in my mouth. After all, it's not like they are building a thousand units a day. QC for a small manufacturer that supposedly builds top flight / mega-dollar gear should be "job 1".

Hovland "may" know better but i'm not sure. The fact that they made changes to the product shows that they are eager to please, but at the same time, didn't do their homework to begin with. Getting an education at the customers expense i.e. "learning as you go" can become pretty expensive for consumers, especially trying to keep up with all of the "Mk II" and "Mk III" revisions. Then again, we are all learning, otherwise products would never evolve and technology would remain the same. Kind of a double-sided coin. One would hope that a company actually tested their products before marketing them though. Some don't because they are afraid that others will "beat them to the punch" and that "every second counts". Too bad the consumer is left holding the bag in that type of situation, especially when that bag used to be full of their own money.

On the other hand, Legacy can tell you everything that you want to know about speaker design if you read their brochures. They obviously have a very astute grasp of marketing their product and telling you what you want to hear. At the same time though, the measurements seem to produce consistent test results that are quite deficient in the same areas. Given the fact that more than one product demonstrates this type of behaviour, i don't think it is a matter of QC, but more-so a "company voice" or "sonic signature" that the designers / engineers think "sounds good". All i know is the measurements that i see for these products demonstrate very noticeable bass bloat ( +5 to +7 dB's at 80 - 120 Hz ). Needless to say, with all of the "know-how" and "technology" invested in these speakers that they keep telling us about, you would think that they could achieve slightly greater linearity out of their multi-thousand dollar products. Sean
>
More to discover