Stillpoints or Audio Points, has anyone compared

Stehno, your logic is flawed.

You write:

"In other words, to realize the full benefits of the Audio Points, the methodology (coupling) has to be applied everywhere.

Assume for the moment that you are using zip cord for all of your cabling needs. You then install Jena Labs top of the line speaker cables, and one pair of their ic's but you leave the other pair of zip cord ic's in place.

You would probably notice a nice little improvement, but most likely not worth the $10k you just paid for these cables, and you'd probably want Jena Labs to refund your monies. But when you install that last pair of Jena Lab ic's and allow for proper burn-in, your system is now singing a whole new song."

Hogwash.

I have heard big differences when changing out one set of IC's or applying vibration control to just one component. Is the improvement cumulative? Certainly, but if you are telling me that Audiopoints can only work in an "all or nothing" approach, then I will tell you they aren't as effective as Vibrapods in MY SYSTEM. The Vibrapods were very audible upon only being installed under my speakers, not my whole system.

The effectiveness of applying the Vibrapod sandwich to my speakers after trying the Sistrum spikes for five days was immediate and dramatic. Helen Keller could have heard the difference.

Once again, if the Sistrum spikes are so much better, why would I have to "Sistrum" my whole system to hear a difference? Robert was confident that I would hear an immediate difference upon installing the spikes on my speakers. Well, I did hear a difference and it wasn't pretty. After five days of trying the spikes, with and without the coupling discs, moving my speakers, etc., I gave up. I finally went out and bought the materials to make the Vibrapod sandwich and the difference was staggering as soon as I hit the play button.

And if the Audiopoints are so effective, then why would I not hear a considerable difference just because I was using the "cheap" Lack Table for my components. If the Vibrapod/Formica solution worked incredibly well on the Lack Table, why not the Audiopoints!

In fairness, I heard no difference between the DH Labs cones and the Audiopoints on the Lack Table without the Vibrapod/Formica combo in place. Not until putting the Vibrapods/Formica solution between the cones and the Lack Table did I get a tremendous improvement.

So what is the common denominator here? Vibrapods. On both my speakers and my components, same result. Without the Vibrapod/Formica setup on my transport, I could feel incredible vibration with my hand; I had horrible soundstaging, bloat and confusion. Immediately upon installing the Vibrapod/Formica idea, not one bit of vibration could be felt on my transport no matter how loudly I played heavy bass material. And my system took a huge leap.

(BTW, I forgot to mention in my first post that I also have dedicated lines and isolation transformers on each line, Acme cryoed silver outlets for each component and Virtual Dynamics power cords.)

Stehno, I am not saying Audiopoints are not great. Maybe they are in your system. Not in mine. No big deal. When we build our new house and I build a dedicated listening room, I will certainly try an entire Sistrum approach at that time. But I will have a concrete pad for my room, as well!

Suspended hardwood floors are just a different animal than concrete pads. So much energy is transferred to the suspended floor and subsequently to the components as compared to a concrete pad poured upon the ground.

I think with a concrete pad, coupling with a Sistrum system makes sense. Get the vibration to ground as quickly as possible. But a suspended hardwood floor is totally different. Since the energy is absorbed by all of the construction materials, everything simply vibrates wildly until the energy is converted to heat or finally finds it way to ground. Enter the Vibrapod solution for the suspended hardwood floor. Immediately convert the resonant energy to heat at the source! Makes perfect sense to me and in my room, there is no argument. One solution works immaculately well and the other is only a marginal improvement over nothing.

In December, I will have my business paid off. At that time, my income will approach seven figures annually after losing the burden of a huge business loan. I am changing my speakers, amp and my transport (possibly Meitner gear - or just a high-end transport for Audio Note DAC which I think is incredible). I will keep my HMS Gran Finale IC’s, probably my DAC and my Supratek preamp. One of my first efforts will be to find the right high-end solution for a rack system, along with speakers, transport and amp. Much will change, but I will still have the suspended hardwood floor. Time will tell what the best solution will be.

In the meantime, I am glad the Sistrum products work for you. I have found what works in my room and that’s all that matters. Maybe you like horns….I don’t. To each his own. The most important thing is to find solutions that bring us the most musical enjoyment and I am ecstatic with the results I am getting with my current modest setup.

Fiddler your speakers as you described previous were never direct coupled to the floor underneath the carpet and the Persian rug combo. If you had removed the Persian rug and tried the use of Audiopoints under your speakers I feel certain the points would have penetrated the normal pad and carpet thus coupling the speakers to ground. Today I installed Audiopoints under a set of Revel Studios and a pair Sistrum platforms under a pair of the large Revel subs. The room has a supended floor over a crawl space. The floor was laminated of 1/4 cork between two layers of 3/4 inch plywood. A wool felt pad was used under a wool carpet. The Audiopoints and the Sistrum were installed after the same system had been in use for over a year. The Audiopoints made a great improvement not subtle ..much better focus much less blur to the bass. Sistrum platforms were then added under the subs..Much tighter, less cabinet noise finding its way up into the midrange, deeper bass faster and less intrusive into the music. The key I feel is that the points must be direct coupled to the surfaces that they come into contact with. Why succeed in decoupling a device that is a coupling device. Speakers I feel really need to be coupled and for many reasons. One great one is for better phase and time alignment. The self induced cabinet motion of a decoupled speaker playing music on a carpeted floor will be greater than the excursion of that same speakers' tweeter. So much for time alignment. I am a dealer..Tom

Hogwash? Fiddler, you misinterpreted just about every point I made.

You didn't seem to like my hyperbola about zip cord and Jena Lab cables and you tried to make it sound pointless. It was hyperbola to stress a point. But if you think it's hogwash, go get the zip cord and try it.

You also misinterpreted my statement about still receiving small improvements with Audio Points but without a decent racking system and Audio Points under the rack.

I made it very clear that improvements would still occur. But that the vast improvements will most likely only occur when you execute the all-or-nothing approach.

Let's try this analogy. Think of the air-borne vibrations as lightning and the components as lightning rods. And think of the Audio Points, rack, and Audio Points under the rack as the grounding cable connecting the lightning rod to ground.

Assume there is a lightning storm and that all lightning will be strike the rod and then re-directed to ground.

Well, air-borne vibrations work the exact same way. You can have the best lightning rod in the world (audio components), but unless it's connected to ground you've compromised the performance of the lightning rod. The Audio Points act as a conduit to provide an exit path for the lightening to transfer away from the rod. But it's the racking system and Audio Points under the racking system that act as the final conduit to ground.

In this example, the music represents the lightning, the component represents the rod, points/rack/points represent the groudning cable. If you substitute a poor rack for a good rack, you're grounding cable may still work, but will certainly become less effective. That's the point I was trying to make previously.

As for the flooring systems? Some to many and I would venture a guess that up to 80% of all audiophiles have suspended wood flooring systems. In fact, my last room was a suspended hardwood flooring system and my current flooring system is suspended with perhaps plywood as the underlayment.

Please stop using the concrete slab vs. suspended hardwood flooring systems as it doesn't substantiate your perspective no matter how much you think it may.

You said, "So what is the common denominator here? Vibrapods. On both my speakers and my components, same result. Without the Vibrapod/Formica setup on my transport, I could feel incredible vibration with my hand; I had horrible soundstaging, bloat and confusion. Immediately upon installing the Vibrapod/Formica idea, not one bit of vibration could be felt on my transport no matter how loudly I played heavy bass material. And my system took a huge leap."

Are you saying that installing Vibrapods under your transport also eliminated any air-borne vibrations captured by the transport as well?

That's some vibrapod.

-IMO

I haven't compared the Stillpoints to the Vibrapods, but can tell you that the combination of the Harmonic Resolution Systems Nimbus Discs/Nimbus along with the Stillpoints is amazing. The two systems work well together and seem to cover up the bad points of each system, while allowing the positive to shine through.

Tom, if you read my post I was the first to say I didn't think the Audiopoints had ever penetrated my Persian rug and wool pad beneath it. I realize the Audiopoints are most effective when they are coupled to the floor, but if the points couldn't get through my rug...nothing I can do about that. I certainly am not going to change the rug! It’s a multi-thousand dollar rug and we bought it from an interior design standpoint.

But Robert at StarSound was certain the spikes would work on my carpet/pad and suspended floor and was also adamant that the coupling discs would work on top of the carpet, just not quiet as well as without them. Either way he said I would experience a huge improvement.

And I don't doubt that you experienced exactly what you said you experienced today with the Revels. In contrast, I am telling you what didn't work in my room (for whatever reasons) and what made an amazing difference. Nothing more I can add to that.

Stehno, sorry if I misinterpreted your points. Wasn't intentional.

But I still take exception to this statement:

"Please stop using the concrete slab vs. suspended hardwood flooring systems as it doesn't substantiate your perspective no matter how much you think it may."

No, let me tell you what substantiates my perspective and reduces yours to nonsense. I have been in this room everyday for the last year and a half and you have never set foot in it.

Until you come hear my room and my floor your comment simply smacks of arrogance. Do a search here and at AA. Numerous others have experienced the exact same problem with suspended hardwood floors and in virtually every instance coupling excited the floor more and made the problem worse. The only successful solution for several others before me was the Vibrapod sandwich solution.

You keep talking about the energy getting to ground. THAT'S THE PROBLEM! In my room, the suspended hardwood floor resonates like crazy at certain bass frequencies if my speakers are sitting directly on the floor. You can talk till you are blue in the face. I have lived this scenario every day. I know what has exacerbated the problem and what has cured it.

The point you seem to be missing is that the energy can't get to ground. Don't you get that. Sure some of it will eventually get there, but it has to travel across all of the sub-flooring and floor joists before it finally gets to a point of exit which would be pillars beneath the floor which go to the foundation. By that time the damage is done. The floor has already been vibrating like a drum before the vibrations get to the pillars. No way around that. The energy simply can't jump across all of the floor joists to the pillars.

And your analogy of the lightening rod is excellent. You prove my point. The lightening (airborne vibrations) can't immediately get to ground because there is no direct path in my floor for the lightening to go to ground. It has to go in a convoluted way to find the ground. And again, the damage is already done. I don't understand why you can't grasp that.

Since I can't efficiently get the airborne vibrations and/or the vibrations from my coupled speakers to the ground before they have already have caused a lot of damage, I have chosen to convert them to heat with the Vibrapods. End of story. It works. The bass is fast, articulate, great slam, focus, etc. with the Vibrapod solution. Everything else is dramatically improved, as well. And there is virtually no floor excitation/boom to the point that I have to ask myself if I can even hear any at all.

I find it interesting that some of you guys are prone to tell me and others that what we are experiencing is simply wrong when we are the ones with first-hand experience with our particular situations. It is simply laughable that you are wasting any time at all trying to contradict what I am telling you about my "real world" experience in MY room!

I know what I hear and what I have experienced in my room. And my experience is exactly the same as many others here if you will take the time to do a search.

Stehno, sorry if I seem agitated, but it is frustrating when someone tells me that my own personal experience isn't what in fact it is.

I do appreciate your feedback and everyone else's, as well. But it seems that anytime anyone questions Sistrum products and or their claims around here (or in my case, has actual disappointing results) the gang piles on. That's okay, as I am confident in what I know to be true in my personal experience and I have never been one to be intimidated by the crowd.

The simple truth is I wanted the Audiopoints to work. They are cheap enough and I was hoping to find a starting place for vibration control as I head into upgrading my system next year.

I am a firm believer in tweaking and I am always open to things that work in my system. But if something doesn't work in my system, I am not afraid to say so. I simply try to state how a product performs in MY system. And I never go out of my way to slam or bash a product. I simply say my peace about my experience and move on.

As I said before. I am sure Audiopoints is an excellent product given the right set of circumstances. The circumstances simply weren't right in my situation.

Oops, I almost forgot your last question:

"Are you saying that installing Vibrapods under your transport also eliminated any air-borne vibrations captured by the transport as well?"

Where did you get that? No, I simply said I couldn't feel any vibrations with my hand after installing the Vibrapods. I am sure there are micro-vibrations at work that I can't feel, but what does that have to do with anything. If I had Audiopoints under my transport the same airborne vibrations would be working on my transport and hopefully the Audiopoints would transfer them away to the ground.

Well, my DH Labs cones under all of my components do the same thing, with one exception. (And who knows, maybe the DH cones aren't as effective as Audiopoints after all, but I didn't hear any difference).

The only difference between the Audiopoints concept and my current setup with the DH Labs cones/Formica/Vibrapods is that the Audiopoints work by transferring the vibrations to ground in an appropriate rack system and my DH Labs transfer the same vibrations to the Vibrapods to convert them to heat.

You know a thought just entered my mind. I don't know about your floor, but my floor joists span 14 feet across the room (32 feet long) without any pillars at all beneath them. This is one big drum head. The entire width of the room is open beneath the floor with pillars only on each side of the room. Maybe your room spans only eight feet or so without pillars. Another factor is my floor is a minimum of six feet above the ground progressing to seven feet. I suspect floors that are closer to the ground may not be as prone to the drum effect due to a more limited reverberant cavity. I obviously don't know shit about this stuff, but it makes sense to me.

I purchased screw jacks as a last resort to use with timbers to tighten up my floor in lieu of pillars (which would give the vibrations a more direct path to ground). I thought I would try the Audiopoints first, but I ended up with the Vibrapod solution instead. As good as the results are with the Vibrapods, I have absolutely zero interest or need to address the floor.

Since we built this house a year and a half ago and we will only be in it another two years or so before we build a larger custom home with a dedicated listening room, I don't really want to hassle any more than I have to with the floor. Otherwise, if we were staying in this house long-term, I would have a contractor come out and add additional footings and pillars under the floor.

But one thing is for sure. Our next home is going to have a dedicated listening room on a concrete pad!