Do we break in our componets or do our componets ?

Redkiwi, I have been having this discussion with the "measurement people" since the day I started on this board.(and long before) It doesn't matter what you say, if they can't measure it, they don't think it exists. Very simple, and I have come to accept that they will never think any other way. Even though you could have 2 tubes that are (different brand)exact replacements for each other, and test exactly the same, they have different sound. Even though you could have 2 capacitors that have exactly the same capacitance, and they sound different. Etc. Etc. Until the day that Triplett makes a meter that has a "Sound Quality" setting on its dial, these guys will never believe it. It's because they don't know how to go about measuring what needs to be measured, so they blame it on others' "psychological perceptions". This is not new, it was going on in the 70s, when these same guys all told us that any amp with .00001% measured distortion(like a $199 Sansui) sounded as good as a $10k audiophile amp(or even better because the $10k amp didn't measure as well). The measurements proved it, and we were all "out to lunch" for spending $10k on our amps. Whoops! They screwed up on their measurement procedures, didn't they? All that global feedback actually did screw things up, didn't it? But boy, it measured good, and that was all that mattered. I would have thought that after 20+ years, people would have woken up, but apparently that is not the case. Meter in hand, they are still preaching the "Bench Tech Gospel". Now, to be fair, there are some worthwhile measurements, and I use them for what they are good for. They can tell you some things. But that's all. When I want to hear what equipment sounds like, I listen to it, I don't plug it into an oscilloscope.

As you say, and as is evidenced by "real scientists" like quantum researchers, there are things that are beyond our ability to measure, but are real. The problem is not with the existence/non-existence of these things, but our ability to measure them. Science lags behind, and is nothing more than an attempt to measure and explain things that we percieve. To state that something cannot exist because we lack the measurement skills to quantify it, is turning science on its head, and is very unscientific, to say the least. When they say that it is like "instrument flying" with need to rely on instruments, they are being genuine, and really think that it is the same thing, and are really trying to be helpful.

I don't expect any of the "measurement people" to agree with me on this, because it is sort of like any other "epiphany" experience. Until you realize it, you think people who have, are nuts.

So I just accept these people at the level that they are at, and don't expect them to understand. They are operating at a level that many here have surpassed years ago, and not everybody in this hobby operates at the same level. Of course, there is some "snake oil" out there too, and most experienced people can "sniff that out" without much trouble. I try not to argue too much about this, because it is useless, for the most part, and non-productive, and generally just gets people pissed-off. Ocassionally, like today, I'll post something about it. I don't really blame anyone for taking this position, because they actually think they are right. So it's up to us to make sure others know that there is more to this than meets the meter's needle.

I'll probably get flamed for this, but my opinion is as good as the next guy's. Unfortunately, we don't have an "opinion meter" to measure which is correct.

Twl --

I don't think you'll get flamed. I think you've made a nice
argument for your position. But, as I read the thread, I
don't see anyone taking the positions you are arguing
against. It seems that someone mentioned "instruments" and that was close enough for you to project your "measurement" opponent onto him. So, while you make a cogent argument, it seems you had to set up a straw man to do it. Other than that, I sense
some typical audio one-ups-man-ship in your post. It
seems you really want us to know you can hear things
that can't be measured. And, this is the typical response to the measurement types -- the claims of
"golden ears." I am skeptical of both sides in the
argument. Finally, there is the infamous study where
they gathered a group of audio reviewers with "golden ears" and had them listen to a sound system. Next,
they showed the group different speaker cables. As
each cable was substituted for the previous, the group
marveled at how different each set of cables sounded.
The problem was that thye cables were never changed.
It was 16 gage zip cord all along. So, there are charlatans everywhere. People who claim to hear things others can't and people who deny the existence
of things that cannot be measured. IMO, anyone trying
to navigate around this field should approach ALL claims with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Rsbeck,

With all due respect, I think you're either missing the point or haven't been around here long enough to recognize that this is an old debate with fairly clearly drawn sides. Although I'm a relative newbie compared to Tom (Twl), Redkiwi, and several others who regularly post on this site, I have experienced the reality of break-in several times with new equipment. I remember quite clearly being shocked when I dropped my brand new out of the box Bel Canto amps into my system and discovered, to my amazement, that some of the music was suddenly missing from some albums I had played so many times I knew them note for note. After trying everything I knew to fix the "problem," I immediately posted a panicky message on this board and placed a call to my dealer. In a short time, several more experienced members told me to settle down and give the amps time to break in. I let them play for several days pretty much non-stop, and believe it or not, after about a week, the "missing" parts reappeared, the sound became much richer, and I was able to start breathing again. Bear in mind, I had NO preconceived ideas about break-in at the time--I just knew something was way wrong with the music when I hooked up my new amps. I didn't need an audiophile or any sophisticated instruments to tell me this--it was just obvious. The break-in for my new Piega speakers was also obvious.

The notion that those people who have experienced this phenomenom are delusional or elitists is, quite frankly, insulting. Now you want to add that we are also just imagining the debate about it as well.

Eldartford does make a good point which does coexist with the obviously correct notion that we observe things that are not currently subject to measurement. People do make inaccurate observations, and can cued in to doing so. Rsbeck was the one who understood the point, Twl posts about this as much his opposition, and Redikiwi started the argument with no one: "I won't insist its reality, if you don't insist that because something is not explained by exixtsing knowledge, then it cannot be reality." As much as hate to talk about it, we sure are eager to.

I think TWL did rather well at avoiding being impolite, in circumstances where it is hard not to feel exasperated.

Rsbeck, I approach all new claims that do not fit my preconceptions with a good deal of scepticism - perhaps even unhealthy scepticism when it suggests I have spent my money on my existing system unwisely. But I would hope you would also approach claims that might lead to greater enjoyment of reproduced music with a healthy degree of open-mindedness that would at least let you listen for yourself.

If it is possible that we do not know everything that is meaningful in the reproduction of music (which I would judge a near certainty rather than just a possibility), then the value of these forums ought to be that posters can report their experiences, and if several posters report similar experiences, then the rest of us will have the opportunity to decide to try for ourselves or ignore the new possibility.

If it is possible that break in exists, then it is also possible that many audiophiles that do not know about it have made gross misjudgements of products that they have had at home for an overnight trial. Such poor audiophiles will have wasted their time and missed out on some otherwise excellent products. Do you not think that these forums ought to serve to improve the way we select products?

I am reminded in this debate of the observation that libertarians have high opinions of their fellow "man", and socialists are the reverse. Do the "it is in your head" posters perhaps have a low opinion of their fellow "man" and feel the need to protect the poor suckers from charlatanism and decry any new possibility simply because people have to be saved from themselves? Is it lack of respect for posters of new ideas? Or do they want to close down possibilities because it scares them - after all we are hurtling through space at frightening speed on a rock we cannot control, you know?

I have no problem with having scepticism. But I don't think that is the same thing as rudely, stupidly, closed-mindedly stating "it is in your head" to someone that has reported accurately here what they they have perceived happening in over 30 years in this hobby.

Would you have it that no poster should report their experiences and beliefs unless there has been scientific corroboration of the effect first? I would have it that we can each state our beliefs about what reality is - whether for or against a new possibility. I don't believe this forum is benefitted by posters that post their beliefs about others based on what those others believe.