You got to show me something more!


Okay, one thread has a group of folks dissin' the Ken Burns Jazz series on PBS. Another thread under Rock Systems has a writer that suggests Jazz merely "jerks around."

To each his/her own, but do you folks even have a clue what constitutes good music?

Rather than spending thousands of dollars on audio gear, perhaps many of you would do yourself a greater service by enrolling in a course in music appreciation. Doing so might actually enhance your appreciatiation of Jazz, and what is probably the most technically challenging, and soul revealing music ever created! Enjoy!
128x128coltrane1
"I can think of few things that musicians hold in more disregard than the use of a giant's name in vain. Calling oneself Coltrane is, if you really understand Jazz and the mindset of it's practitioners a drag to say the least."

Frogman: Some of your comments suggest but one more example of misquotation, presumption, and assumption about many things I've said since beginning this thread. I won't take a defensive posture to counter your suggestions, as they are your beliefs, and as such, you're entitled to them.

Not that I have to explain myself, but for the record, the moniker is COLTRANE1. It is but a moniker. It does not use another persons name in vain, as you suggest. It does promote A) an obvious enthusiasm for Coltrane's music, and B) in the very least does provoke curiosity on the part of some person to ask, "What does Coltrane1 stand for?" (which it has many a time), thereby initiating interest on the part of someone who had no idea who Coltrane was.

I'll not comment on the rest of your post other than to say, yes, a student of an instrument mimics in the beginning, but the ultimate objective is to find one's own voice. There are countless voices in JAZZ that you, I, or anyone can easily identify that don't copy each other.

I believe you have mistaken enthusiasm of JAZZ for arrogance. It's your perception, and like something else we all have, perception is in the mind of the individual. I believe, it is arrogant and ignorant to suggest your own interpretation of what another has written, and intended to say. But that's okay, for we as human beings do this naturally. We always presume our interpretation is what another is saying. And this error occurs in each and every thread ever created. The bottom line. It's about thought, and a sharing of ideas. Not to be taken so seriously, for in the big picture, IT AIN'T THAT CRITICAL.

Enjoy all!
Coltrane1
Coltrane1, you said, "I believe you have mistaken [my]enthusiasm of JAZZ for arrogance." I do appreciate the points you've made about jazz. But you did walk in here with a missionary complex, out to "enlighten" (your word, used several times) others about jazz. You seem surprised any time you discover another jazz supporter, so you must be unaware of the large number of jazz fans on this site, and of very recent jazz discussions here. Eldragan, who made the "jerky" comment, is not one of them. He's a busy contributor here, and he probably let his diligent work on the "best beer made anywhere" thread influence his style of commentary on this topic -- so what. You kind of violated many of the guidelines for how to work your way into a listserv, newsgroup, etc. I think that's why you're getting the reaction you are. Good luck!
I sense a softening in your attitude Coltrane1. You will find that you yourself might learn something from the contributors to this site. You are correct it is "about thought, and the sharing of ideas". The hardest thing is balancing one's convictions with some objectivity and an open mind. We are not all created equal as far as our hearing acuity nor our openness to music that is challenging or emotionally demanding. But most can learn and learn to appreciate the more subtle aspects of any form of music. Pick up any recording of Marriner cunducting Bach with The Academy of Saint Martin In The Fields. If that doesn't swing, I don't know what does. There has been no presumption, assumption nor misquotation in response to your comments. Just go back and reread your own posts with a bit more objectivity and you'll see what I mean. It's OK man, we all sometimes let our exuberance get in the way a bit. I'm reminded of when I was in conservatory and it was hip to put down the "classical cats" for not being able to swing and the classical cats stereotypically assumed that the "jazz cats" wouldn't be able to play in tune nor with finness. Not! Any really good musician knows that the dividing line is not nearly as wide as often thought. Take the edge off of your exuberance and you might make a good contributor to this arena.
"Any decent jazz pianist can play circles around a classically trained player."

Frogman
"Give me a break. You can't possibly believe this. If you do, you obviously haven't listened to the great classical pianists."

Frogman: Let me elaborate on my initial statement. I've not wanted to go there because this is not a music study venue. But, since you insist.

For instance, if one aspires to learn Jazz Piano, one has to approach the instrument from a totally different mindset than a Classical player approaches it.

Let's examine the similarities first:

Both musicians must acquire a working knowledge of music theory.
The Classical player is content with studying traditional theory, and for the most part, he/she is off and running.
The Jazz player acquires the same theroretical knowledge, and after mastering that, he/she must roll up their sleeves and really get to work! In order to become a consumate player, one has to know when/how all of the traditional rules can be changed, substituted, omitted, or downright replaced or broken.
Theoritical knowledge (study) alone of an average Jazz player requires much more than a classical player.

Scales, Rhythms, etc.

The Classical student masters Major, Minor, and Diminished Scale Harmony, and his/her study of scales for the most part ends here. Standard rhythmic forms are also explored.
The Jazz student must master the above, but in addition to them he/she must also master a working knowledge of Melodic Minor scale, Whole Tone scale, Pentatonic scale, Blues scale, Bebop scale,etc., etc...I could go on, but you get the idea.
Rhythmically, the Jazz player must acquire a vast working knowledge of everything from Latin, Salsa, and every known rhythm under the sun, for who knows when the moment may arise that a particular rhythmic tempo is required.

While Classical theory is fairly complete at this point, a Jazz player has to address the following:
Basic Reharmonization (Tritone substitution, slash chords, half diminished chords, V chords and each of their alternate extensions, Lydian, Lydian Augmented)
Advanced Reharmonization: Contrary motion, Parallelism, Ascending/Desceding bass lines, pedal points, changing the melody...it goes on, and on, and on, as this but scratches the surface. One also needs to spend time learning the styles of the past, while working on their own voice. There simply are not enough hours in the day!

This is but a very brief glimpse into what a Jazz piano player must master before he/she even takes on the task of attempting to learn to improvise.

I have some personal working knowledge and experience of the piano. I'm what one would probably classify as an average player. I write, read, transcribe and improvise music as a hobbyist. I've never had any formal study in a scholastic environment. I've many a musical friend that has. If I or any of them were merely limited to studying (learning repetoire), and focusing on technique only, we'd all be professional. It should be pointed out to the unfamiliar, that Jazz piano is no easy undertaking. It is far more involved than the average listener is hearing. And to become good, really good, takes a great investment of time, sweat, and passion for the instrument.

I dig the classics too, but nothing I've ever heard impresses me personally as much as what I've heard the Jazz greats creating. Probably because, on an average recording I can hear what's happening, and know first hand what they've mastered to get there.

Like classical, it's a lifetime undertaking. One simply cannot do justice to it as a hobbyist, but it is no less rewarding...Jazz music sells on average make up less than 3% annually. So even professionals struggle to make a living.

So, you and I share a different view between a classical and a jazz player. And that is entirely as it should be. LOL...Hey man, just call me SOFTY from now on!

It's been fun man!

Enjoy!
Coltrane1
Hey Softy, there's a great story popular among my professional colleagues that goes like this; and it is absolutely verifiably true: Gerry Mulligan is on a plane on his way back to N.Y. and meets Zubin Mehta (then conductor of the N.Y. Philharmonic). They're chit-chatting and before you know it the maestro invites Mulligan to play the soprano saxophone solo in "Bolero" (by Ravel) in an upcoming series at Lincoln Center. Bolero is a very deceptively difficult solo to play well. During rehearsals it was one mishap after another, when came time for the soprano sax to play. Late entrances, inaccurate rhythms, very sharp high register...On the first performance, Mulligan played the entire second half of the solo one beat behind where he should have been. The second night he started the solo in the wrong octave (one too low) and the tenor saxophonist was about to finish the solo for him as he was about to run out of notes, when he suddenly jumped to the correct octave to finish the solo. The last performance whent fairly well and at the end the piece as the orchestra was taking it's customery bow, Mulligan turns to the tenor saxophonist and says: "We played the shit out of it, didn't we?"