Are first order crossovers best?

I don't think many speaker designers would use the same drivers for a 1st order cross-over as they would for a 4th order cross-over. The very reason for using a 4th order would probably be to avoid that much over lap and to maximize particular drivers strengths. On paper a 1st order-cross over appears to be the simplest and cheapest. What not may be immeadeately obvious is that most manufacturers who choose 1st order crossovers go to great lengths to use first order cross overs towards a final goal. That goal being a time and phase coherence at the listening position. Thiel even goes further to present the amp with a steady load. These cross overs are far from simple. They compensate for driver irregularites, box resonances, etc. First order cross overs are only 1 step towards a final goal, these cross overs are tweaked along with many other designer considerations. The cabinets are time aligned which can add greatly to manufacturing costs. The drivers themsleves usually need to be capable of greater range. To suggest that first order cross-overs are a cost cutting decision is short sighted. Unless one is designing their own speaker, judging by isolated compenents to determine the value of a speaker is fraught with problems.

So from your description Unsound, Theil uses a Zobel network in conjunction with the cross-overs in their speakers? Similar to that of the GMA Europa.

Gmood1, While I'm not sure that Thiel uses a Zoebel, I think that he does. What I'm suggesting goes beyond that though. Thiel loads the cross overs so that they present a fairly constant impedance.

I think understand..it's similar to what a baffle step correction circuit does for my speakers. The amplifier sees an almost constant 9 ohm load. This makes the impedance flat from 100Hz all the way passed 20Khz. Also the phase angle is nearly zero in the same frequency range. There was a time when I didn't think this stuff mattered.I know better now as I can hear the difference.

Gee. . . thanks. to clear up something before it getts too far afield...

the note regarding speaker cables is ONLY where I derived the info as to what speaker is in use or may be in use... the cable guys expanding on that theme of possible speakers then provided some of their insights on First, Third, fourth order types of speakers. I, as some of you, did and do not see the correlation between cables and the type crossover being used in a given loudspeaker.

As with most of the audio realm, murkiness prevails. I agree that time and phase coherent speakers, although picky to setup IMO, provide a very coherent and larger sound field... or such is my limited experience.

The thrust of the thread was/is to delve into characteristics of given first, third, fourth order crossover designed loudspeakers. Both positive and negative traits. So thus far, I gather the higher the order of crossover, the strickter the field of operation. No wiggle room, or certainly less so, correct?

Also I've gleened no actual determination of a good, better, or best scenario exists soley on the basis of how low or high the order is in application & design. Correct?

My aim was/is to gain some more solid footing in finding which design, creates more fluidity, and natural a presentation, on average, and is not dependant upon a particular sort of amplification.... with the understanding an increase in sensitivity of loudspeaker is accomodating to those amps of lesser power capacity. The key, so far as I am concerned is not the available power, but the way it is handled. though I might be off track with my thinking here, I'm looking to find a design that is accomodating to music, more so than power or the lack of it. Personally, I'm sold on the notion of more power equals more control... and saying that I realize much of the sound is genrrated in the first 50 wpc. A good bit, if not all. It’s impact however, imaging and sense of realism, for me, seems to come a bit further on up… but then, I’m no engineer.

I got the impression from speaking with certain manufacturers a discernable or audible difference is apparent between speakers with different order designs… like a ‘thumbprint’ so to speake. I’m not so sure. B&W’s in general use a higher crossover, Monitor Audio, another English unit, uses no caps whatever for crossovers…VSA, again a higher ordered crosss… and the same with older Phase Technology three ways. I’ve owned several of the B&W two way & three way units. The Gold 60s from Monitor Audio, three way and two way PT’s, and now the 4JR’s. the latter when set right does provide a striking field of sonic involvement. That being said, as with the BW’s, I do notice specific spots where the music seems to end with some abruptness. Not a terrible thing, but one I’d like very much to avoid on the next set of speakers I get. Hence, my curiosity.

I quit reading after the first 60 or so threads, or rather the PC quit reading to me… maybe it’s got a high crossover as well.

Any further thoughts to clear up my ignorance in this regard, or add to another's enlightenment, are greatly appreciated.