Are first order crossovers best?

Gmood1, While I'm not sure that Thiel uses a Zoebel, I think that he does. What I'm suggesting goes beyond that though. Thiel loads the cross overs so that they present a fairly constant impedance.

I think understand..it's similar to what a baffle step correction circuit does for my speakers. The amplifier sees an almost constant 9 ohm load. This makes the impedance flat from 100Hz all the way passed 20Khz. Also the phase angle is nearly zero in the same frequency range. There was a time when I didn't think this stuff mattered.I know better now as I can hear the difference.

Gee. . . thanks. to clear up something before it getts too far afield...

the note regarding speaker cables is ONLY where I derived the info as to what speaker is in use or may be in use... the cable guys expanding on that theme of possible speakers then provided some of their insights on First, Third, fourth order types of speakers. I, as some of you, did and do not see the correlation between cables and the type crossover being used in a given loudspeaker.

As with most of the audio realm, murkiness prevails. I agree that time and phase coherent speakers, although picky to setup IMO, provide a very coherent and larger sound field... or such is my limited experience.

The thrust of the thread was/is to delve into characteristics of given first, third, fourth order crossover designed loudspeakers. Both positive and negative traits. So thus far, I gather the higher the order of crossover, the strickter the field of operation. No wiggle room, or certainly less so, correct?

Also I've gleened no actual determination of a good, better, or best scenario exists soley on the basis of how low or high the order is in application & design. Correct?

My aim was/is to gain some more solid footing in finding which design, creates more fluidity, and natural a presentation, on average, and is not dependant upon a particular sort of amplification.... with the understanding an increase in sensitivity of loudspeaker is accomodating to those amps of lesser power capacity. The key, so far as I am concerned is not the available power, but the way it is handled. though I might be off track with my thinking here, I'm looking to find a design that is accomodating to music, more so than power or the lack of it. Personally, I'm sold on the notion of more power equals more control... and saying that I realize much of the sound is genrrated in the first 50 wpc. A good bit, if not all. It’s impact however, imaging and sense of realism, for me, seems to come a bit further on up… but then, I’m no engineer.

I got the impression from speaking with certain manufacturers a discernable or audible difference is apparent between speakers with different order designs… like a ‘thumbprint’ so to speake. I’m not so sure. B&W’s in general use a higher crossover, Monitor Audio, another English unit, uses no caps whatever for crossovers…VSA, again a higher ordered crosss… and the same with older Phase Technology three ways. I’ve owned several of the B&W two way & three way units. The Gold 60s from Monitor Audio, three way and two way PT’s, and now the 4JR’s. the latter when set right does provide a striking field of sonic involvement. That being said, as with the BW’s, I do notice specific spots where the music seems to end with some abruptness. Not a terrible thing, but one I’d like very much to avoid on the next set of speakers I get. Hence, my curiosity.

I quit reading after the first 60 or so threads, or rather the PC quit reading to me… maybe it’s got a high crossover as well.

Any further thoughts to clear up my ignorance in this regard, or add to another's enlightenment, are greatly appreciated.

Blindjim, with all due respect You might be a bit off base with some though certainly not all of your assumptions. Many of these issues can and have been argued here ad nasuem. While I admire your approach, perhaps it might be best to just use your ears and determine what you seem to like and then determine if there seems to be any correlation or similarity between those systems/components. From there you might find a springboard into the archives and into the current and future forum to confirm your impressions and perhaps open your horizons to other gear that might fit into your personal preferential hieracrchy. Good luck.

Unsound...Where did you (and a lot of other guys)get the idea that a first order (6 dB/oct) crossover has no phase shift? Actually the woofer and tweeter phase varies with frequency, but always differs by 90 degrees. The tweeter can be physically positioned so that at some particular frequency, usually the X/O frequency, the two drivers are in phase. As you get away from the X/O frequency the phase difference between drivers becomes unimportant because one or the other is attenuated. Inverting the polarity of one driver changes the phase discrepancy from plus90 to minus 90...take your choice.

Polarity inversion makes more sense for a second order crossover, where the phase discrepancy is 180 degrees. The selling point for fourth order, apart from the 24dB slopes, is that, with 360 degrees of phase shift the drivers are in phase. Fourth order is difficult and expensive to implement with a passive speaker level X/O, but quite easy for an electronic line level crossover.