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Comments, please, on Spica TC-60 setup.

I'm new to the forum and have a decidedly beer-budget approach to music reproduction, but would appreciate any comments or advice on setting up a pair of TC-60s I bought recently on eBay. I hear they're tricky, and would like to think they're capable of better than what I'm hearing.

The system: Harman/Kardon HK3500 50wpc receiver & FL8550 5-disc CD changer and Mission 772 speakers being replaced with Spica TC-60s. Monster interconnects and XP speaker wire (2 10' pairs for biwiring). Also, Stax Lambda Pros with SRD-X energizer.

The issue: The Spica's are much more reticent than the Missions on dynamics and vocals, and the imaging, while good and deeper than the Missions, is not dramatically better.

The setup: very lively 12x18 room with 9' ceiling. Speakers 4' from front wall, 2' from side walls, 8' apart on 26" metal stands. Listening position 4' from back wall, 10' from speakers. As it's an apartment, listening levels are natural only on quiet vocal material.

This arrangement seems to yield the best soundstage, but it's not what you'd call holographic. It's a little more tightly defined than the Missions' and deeper. Bass is also much more articulate. But, the upper midrange reticence (around 1-2KHz) is just killing vocals and any sense of immediacy. Norah Jones and Abbey Lincoln are just too far away and hiding behind a thin curtain. The Missions are perhaps too up-front, killing soundstage depth, but intimate vocals are right there and very close to the Staxes in tonal balance. With the Spicas, only on livelier material like Paul Simon's Rythm of the Saints cranked up to near-natural levels (enough to bother the neighbors downstairs) do the dynamics start to open up and generate a sense of space despite the laid-back reproduction of the vocals. These speakers seem to need to be fairly loud. At low levels, the dynamics just aren't there.

Now, obviously, better source and amplification gear would help. Better stands would help. Better cables might help. But, in terms of dynamics and presence, the Missions manage much better with this modest kit, albeit with a more forward and much shallower soundstage. I'm not aiming for the ultimate in resolution here. I just want a believable soundstage and presence. I have to believe the TC-60s can sound better, and I'm hoping it's a question of positioning.

My 20-year-old memories of the TC-50, and the reviews of the TC-50 and Angelus I've read, led me to expect a somewhat thin, tipped-up sound from the TC-60, which would suit me fine if the imaging lived up to Spica's reputation. But, this is exactly the opposite of what I'm hearing. It's not that voices are chesty, but more that their upper octaves are rolled off.

Any help or comments, especially from TC-60 owners, would be greatly appreciated.
jacquescornell
opalchip
355 posts
 
Spicas should be toed in almost until they point directly at you - if you had them set up more conventionally that may have been part of the problem.

The TC-60's will not image quite the same as the TC-50's you remember since the design incorporates a larger mid-woofer, a larger cabinet, and a port - all of which will create some amount of blur, relatively speaking.

Better amplification would certainly help, but I don't think I'd recommend older Adcoms. Even on a tight budget, IMO, there are better alternatives. Frankly, I'd rather have a big ol' high power, high current integrated amp like the Pioneer A-71 Elite. Or a better receiver, like a Yamaha R-2000 or Pioneer SX-1250.

Keep in mind, before going too crazy, that all the Spicas are now dated designs. They were superb, even revolutionary in their day, especially for their price. But that was almost 20 years ago. You may want to check out something like a used pair of Polk Lsi 9's eventually.
jacquescornell OP
56 posts
 
Opalchip,

Thanks for the feedback. I've found that the listening position needs to be as far from the line between the speakers as the distance between the speakers. As for toe-in, I came to the same conclusion as you did - straight at the ears. Right now, the tweeters are about 3" below ear level, and I think I need to raise them to ear level, but definitely not above as they were when I started.

The TC-60s are growing on me. Although they don't project into the room, and vocals are still a little laid-back, the soundstage is quite precise, wide, and amazingly deep. I'm finding, too, that vocal presence is much more a function of the recording than I'd realized. Some of the tracks on Norah Jones' debut CD have her voice a bit muffled - perhaps she was eating the mic - whereas others are definitely more open. On my Mission 772s, everything sounds open and forward. I think the Spicas are revealing a lot more than the Missions about recording quality. On material with great soundstage depth, like Dire Straits' "Brothers in Arms" I feel like I can see mountains off in the distance. "Lyle Lovett and his Large Band", too, shows great front-to-back depth. Dynamics are not great, and this is where a more modern speaker will probably put the Spicas to shame. Even the Missions are better, delivering lively punch from Lyle Lovetts horn section.

My Stax Lambda Pros, like my Missions, have a much more up-close sound, which makes me suspect that the distant-but-deep soundstage of the Spicas is a bit inaccurate, perhaps a function of the old drivers' lack of fast transients. My personal preference is for a somewhat closer, faster, more ethereal sound. Still, the Spicas are very charming and involving in their own way, providing pleasures not afforded by the Missions. I expect I'll keep them until I can afford something significantly better - a used pair of Martin Logan Aeriuses, perhaps.

In the meantime, I'll take some baby steps on the electronics side. I've never owned better than H/K, and have long been attracted by the reported price/performance value of Adcom, so I'm going to try that for a while. For $110, I couldn't say no to an Adcom GFP-555, and I plan to mate this with a pair of GFA-535s if I can snag them for about $100 each, just to see for myself what biamping might do. Will repair my Mission 700as sub, and add a second if I can find one for $150 just for the hell of it. I'm thinking two subs crossed over around 100-120Hz might drain some of the mud out of the Spicas' bottom end. Might also consider replacing the TC-60s with TC-50s in that case. I know, I could probably do better by plunking down the cash all at once on something better. But, this way I can invest at a leisurely pace and learn a lot in the process.
opalchip
355 posts
 
One suggestion which yielded pretty amazing results with TC-50's when I did something similar some 20 years ago:

Once you have the position for the TC-60's optimized, and you've got a new amp(s) - try running the Spicas in parallel with the Missions. You'll still need the H/K receiver to run the Missions, since it will give you the ability to fine tune the volume of the speakers relative to one another. (The Spicas at 4 ohms will be louder at the same power level - which is probably how you want them to balance out anyway). The key to maintaining imaging and proper freq. response is to measure the distance from the Spica midrange drivers to your listening position and make sure the Missions are placed symmetrically at EXACTLY the same distance. By keeping them close together, you'll pick up some bass coupling. You may be amazed at what you hear.

The downside is that any movement by you, even a few inches, out of your "sweet spot" will have phase cancellation issues. But right in the spot and you will possibly have some very exciting audio.

I did this with TC-50's, literally sitting on top of a pair of a friend's Bose 501's in 1986. As we know, the 501's SUCK on their own - which was what I intended to demonstrate by bringing my Spicas over to his place. But as part of the combo they served to fill in the lows and the highs - and the imaging was spectacular. We were pretty blown away.
jacquescornell OP
56 posts
 
Connected the Spicas and Missions to the A & B speaker outputs on my H/K. Sensitivity is very close. The Missions add some presence and dynamics, but they completely muck up the Spicas' imaging. Not a good combo. Think I'll sell the Missions. And, now that I've got this bee in my bonnet, I'm going to audition some Martin Logans, Thiels and Gallo Reference 3s today. Dangerous, I know. I could be happy with the Spicas, though, especially if I get my Mission 700as sub fixed.
jacquescornell OP
56 posts
 
I'm still posting my findings just in case any other new Spica owners have trouble with setup. I hope my experience will prove useful to others, especially as I was about to give up and am now LOVING these speakers.

I've now found an even better position for my TC-60s in my 12x19x9 room. I was getting good imaging but distant, inaccessible vocals and drum kits with the Spicas 18" off the floor, 18" from the side walls, 5' from the front wall, and toed in straight at the listening position. As I reported, imaging was wide and deep, but a bit far away, dynamics were compressed, and bass was a bit muddy. All of these issues went away when I put the Spicas back on my 26" stands and positioned 'em 6" (yes, six inches) from the side walls and 28" from the front wall, still aimed straight at the throne. I moved the throne forward to maintain a listening position about one foot closer to the speakers than the distance between the speakers.

The sound stage has moved up about 10', putting Norah Jones right between the speakers, and front-to-back soundstage depth is now less exaggerated and more realistic, with very precise front-to-back positioning. I am now one very happy camper. This is the sound I was expecting when I bought the TC-60s based on 20-year-old memories of the TC-50s. Not only is everything now the correct apparent distance away, but the tonal darkness is gone, giving voice much better presence. In addition, drums and horns are now a bit punchier. All in all, the Spicas have really opened up.

Two days ago, dissatisfied with the dark tonal balance I was hearing, I went to audition some Martin Logans and loved 'em. I was about to plunk down $1,300 on a used pair today, but after hearing the Spicas really beginning to blossom, I'm putting my wallet away. All they need now is a modest sub. They don't have the Nth degree of resolution that the MLs offer, but in terms of throwing a believable image, they're really gratifyingly close. Amazing. Three cheers for John Bau.
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