Do you ...Center Channel?

The whole ICBM issue begs the question about deriving a center channel since it will not do that nor, I think, does Baam23f think it does. The ICBM is sorta off-topic in this thread.

In the (near) future, when all MCH formats can be transferred as digital signals to AVRs and pre/pros, this will become less and less of an issue. In fact, Outlaw has discontinued the ICBM in recognition of the declining need for it. That said, I do not believe there is another product that will do the same job, except the MartinSound ManagerMAX. Certainly, no digital device is available, AFAIK.

And I do agree with you about the relative transparency of the A/D/A conversions if done well. For example, SACDs fed into the 24/96 A/D inputs of my Meridian 861 still sound excellent. But, frankly, the A/D conversions of most AVRs are not to that standard, in my experience.

Kal

I too was in a situation of whether or not to keep my center channel. I am running B&W 802's in the Front, HTM1 Center and 805's rears. All powered by Rotel Gear and Audioquest cables.

My problem came with space limitations with my Plasma screen. I can't wall mount my plasma due to a water pipe in the wall of my Condo, so my Plasma must sit on the buffet table. My HTM1 is 12" tall, so I'm left with either having to build a stand for my Plasma to sit on, or doing away with the HTM1. I've run the sound with both 5.1 set up and 4.1 (creating a Phantom Center). I have SPL metered both set ups as well.

My findings is that as long as I'm sitting on the sofa in front of the TV, I prefer the Phantom Setup. In fact, the SPL meter is higher/louder with just dialog scenes in Phantom Center mode than in 5.1 mode. The Dialog seems richer and less mono, as well as the TV is at a more natural viewing height.

The only reason I could see keeping the Center is for SACD and 5.1 Music recordings, which I rarely listen to. I prefer 2 channel music anyway.

I wish I had known this, I would never had bought a center channel to begin with!!! The HTM1 is mammoth!!!

I'll be selling my Center HTM1 soon either here or on eBay. I guess I'll use the money to upgrade my Rotel Receiver to Arcam!!!

My recommendation, and I'm no expert, but think I can appreciate good sounding audio is as follows:
If you have a processor/receiver that can produce 4.1 with a Phantom Center, good imaging speakers with a wide soundstage and good cables that really open up that soundstage, then run your system in Phantom mode and save your money.

This of course is if you are planning on sitting in between the L/R speakers.

What's wrong with Mono dialog? Last time I checked people had only one mouth, a perfect point source.

For me, the issue of a CC relates in part to the general poor design of most CC speakers. One primary reason for a CC, at least for HT, is to anchor dialog to the screen for those seated off center. Yet the majority of CC designs are a horizontal D'Apolito configuration using either three or five drivers. How can this possibly come close to the timbre of the L/R speakers? And how can it work for anyone not seated on center, where the CC then becomes redundant?

At present, the design limitations of my condo mean I drop a 6' screen between my floor-standing speakers which are 8' apart. I find I can greatly enjoy movies and music DVDs in only two channel audio with this set up.

I'd like to issue an update to my post a few days ago. I had mentioned that the Phantom Center sounded better than having a dedicated Center Channel and that I would be selling my B&W HTM1.

That is no longer the case. Phantom mode is good and the dialog does seem to come from a center image when seated on Axis. However, I just finished a bi-wire configuration of my Center Channel with the bass cross over set to 60Hz and my Center turned up 2+ louder than my fronts. I prefer loud crisp dialog for 5.1 movies.

The differences now are apparent to me. After watching movies in Phantom mode and then watching full movies with the bi-wired speaker, I can honestly say that a good Center Channel is a must for 5.1 Home theatre.

What I noticed is that Dialog is clearer and requires less strain to hear it. Separation of front sound is better and less muddy and the front sound stage is much wider.

Can you have good sound from Phantom mode? Absolutely. But can it beat a 3 channel setup up front? No. I initially thought it could, but the difference is greatly apparent.

I had to custom build a stand to raise my TV in order to place the mammoth B&W HTM1 speaker in front, but I see myself enjoying home audio, especially movies a whole lot more.

If it is a money issue, buy the better fronts for now and run in Phantom mode. This is a good option especially if you like listening to music and want better performance. The great thing about home audio is that you can slowly upgrade and eventually bring in a solid Center if you chose.

Spacial issues, I'd recommend the same and run in Phantom Center. If you have the room though, and can afford a top notch Center Channel, I highly recommend it.

I really wanted to not have a Center channel, recoupe some cash and put it toward an ARCAM AVR350. I guess I'll have to wait, because my B&W Center Channel is staying put. That is, until I am fortunate enough to upgrade my system againd down the road... - :-)