Why are hi-end active monitors not more popular?

Niki, hello yourself. I had 2 systems going and am consolidating to one serious system and am going to set up wifi/imac systems in some other rooms. Thus the quest to examine some simple solutions:imac (itunes data on a NAS) to a dac to an active monitor possibly. I'm tired of the cable voodoo and just want to settle in to listen to some music in my other rooms.

Squeegybug, thank you for your comments and I am sure your experience with actives must have been dissatisfactory for you to feel as you do. I notice you have Zu Druids and Bel Canto amps so you obviously enjoy a different type of reproduction than I do, but to each his own. I owned some Zu Tones and some Zu Druids in tertiary systems some time back and they were fun. Real fun. Zu's cables are also a tremendous value.

BUT ZU'S ARE HARDLY THE BENCHMARK FOR NEUTRAL SOUND REPRODUCTION.

They are fun, they boogie and I may purchase another pair someday but if you are mastering on them then your recordings will likely be a touch hot on the frequency extremes since Zus are rolled off there. I understand the new Zu presence will alleviate the intentional rolloff (check their site) on the tweeter and the built in ACTIVE subwoofer should fill out the bottom.

isn't our hobby about sound? technology for its own sake without sonic improvement is less attractive than old technology with sonic improvement.

and yes, there will be disagreements as to what sounds better or worse. thus, the value of technology may be viewed as subjectively as what constitutes better sound.

by the way does anyone know of active (non hybrid) panel speakers ?

if not what might be the reason none exist ?

A quote from Andrew Lipinski: "Tests indicate that many amplifiers built into the back of a speaker produce up to 15 percent second- and third-harmonic distortion."

Ghasley: I notice you have Zu Druids and Bel Canto amps so you obviously enjoy a different type of reproduction than I do.

... if you are mastering on them then your recordings will likely be a touch hot on the frequency extremes since Zus are rolled off there.

Yes Ghasley, the Druids are fun speakers. However my studio pair are not currently using the standard tweeter networks. And I very occasionally use a pair of small Hsu subs to fill in the last octave, as needed. Bass trapping, diffusion, level calibration, positioning, etc. make real differences in the performance of the Druids (and any speaker) for these applications.

I like the Bel Canto/Zu combination for listening as well as for mix/master work -- a fast clean amp and fast clean speakers suit my needs. As for translation, the Druids are producing better mixes and masters for me than PMC, Paradigm, Dynaudio, Tannoy, Celestion, Infinity Ref, or SLS did.

Speakers with 'detailed' bright tweeters are very common and easy to find. Speed, dynamics, balance, and linear midrange, are not.

Quoting Bob Olhsson: "The right level of monitor resolution for the job is very important... ...you can go crazy with perfecting sound to the point that it gets in the way of the musical performance."

Shadhorne: Some Mastering engineer's have used Actives...Bob Ludwig, George Massenburg, Doug Sax, Gavin Lurssen, Frank Wolf, James Guthrie

For example Brothers in Arms 20th Aniversary Edition won a Grammy for best surround sound and was both mixed and mastered on active speakers.

Yep, you are right, all those except Ludwig are from the ATC client list. And of course Lurssen was connected to Sax through The Mastering Lab, where they both formerly long used Sax' own custom cabs/crossovers with Tannoy drivers, and his own custom amps.

I expect ATC is probably on top of the game as far as powered monitors go, for the $17,000/pair 3-way tri-amped SCM150A those particular four MEs are using.

Shadhorne, I'm curious about George Massenburg doing mastering? Of course he is a respected producer, recording/mixing engineer, and equipment designer (but no, he did not invent the parametric equalizer...). His quote I've seen was "My mastering engineer of choice is Doug Sax."

Also wondering where you heard that Ludwig used active monitors to master BIA/20th? I know he has long used EgglestonWorks and previously Duntech. And of course has done practically the entire Dire Straits/Knopfler catalog.

From a list I made up a while back, of equipment used by some of the most prolific and successful mastering engineers:

- Greg Calbi / Sterling ........ ProAc Response 4

- Bernie Grundman ........ Customized (vintage) Tannoy, Crown DC-300 amp

- Steve Hoffman ........ Escalante Juniper, Whatmough 202, Tannoy Lancaster Gold, Wavac SET and McIntosh MC402 amps

- Scott Hull / Masterdisk / Classic Sound / Hit Factory ........ Duntech Sovereign

- Ted Jensen / Sterling ........ B&W Nautilus 801

- Bob Katz ........ Reference 3A, Lipinski L-707, Pass X250 and Hafler amps

- Ken Love / Mastermix ........ Long CMF-100, Bryston amps

- Joe Lambert / Trutone ........ KEF Reference 4 and Reference 207, Bryston amps

- Emily Lazar / The Lodge ........ Duntech PCL-3 and PCL-5

- Bob Ludwig / Gateway ........ EgglestonWorks Ivy, Duntech Sovereign, Cello amps

- Stephen Marcussen ........ B&W Nautilus 802, Aragon amps

- Glenn Meadows / Masterfonics (now gone) ........ Hidley-Kinoshita custom soffit mount, Cello and FM Acoustics amps

- Bob Olhsson / Georgetown ........ Duntech Sovereign, Nova Evolution

- Denny Purcell (RIP) / Georgetown ........ Nova Applause and Evolution II, Pass Labs X-1000 amps

- Alan Silverman / Arf ........ Dunlavy Athena, Lipinski L-707, Bryston 5B-ST amps

- Paul Stubblebine ........ Alon Wolf custom

- Hank Williams / Mastermix ........ PMC BB-5 and MB-1, Bryston amps

Those are all passive speakers with standalone amplifiers.

Perhaps more of the audio production world will start to move to actives, but there is a lot of history in that business to stay with what has worked in the past, and to emulate successful MEs.

Well anyway, that is probably a detour from the original question of using actives in home audio environments. Just pointing to some other 'critical listening' situations that are pretty much committed to passive monitors over active.

Steve

Steve,

Wow that is an awesome equipment list. I would be delighted/comfortable with almost any of the gear you listed.

My only point was that some Mastering Engineers do or have used Active speakers rather than none (as "forget it" sort of implied to me). I stated earlier that "I would agree that many [Mastering Engineers] use conventional speakers (passive). " , which you just proved with a long list of illustrious ME's with impressive passive speakers - so I think we are in both in agreement. This is great - we agree and no need for me to add many more Active speaker users to a list as you have done (on passives) as I am not trying to prove that everyone uses Actives...I agree that a great many do not.

As for

Quoting Bob Olhsson: "The right level of monitor resolution for the job is very important... ...you can go crazy with perfecting sound to the point that it gets in the way of the musical performance."

Well I had to laugh, since Bob Olhsson uses DunTech Sovereigns ... I mean hardly an ordinary run-of-the-mill circuit city speaker - I mean these are up there with some of the best speakers ever made!

Please share any other anecdotes you have from the pro world, as I really enjoyed reading about it and hope that others did to. (I am an ordinary consumer with no music industry affiliation and yes I get most of my limited knowledge from reading rags like Sound on Sound etc. , user lists etc., AES journal etc. I do not personally know any of the people I referenced.)

BTW: I finally found pics of your gear (Zu Druid setup) on another thread - that looks absolutely awesome too - wow! Like Ghasley, I am a little surprised to find the Zu's being used for this purpose but clearly you are aware of the limitations and use a sub when necessary and yours do not use standard tweeter networks. (No doubt you are a "Guru" at this stuff)

Steve,

Thanks for the list and I appreciate you taking the time to compile such a comprehensive sampling. This is a funny hobby isn't it? In examining the list the speakers on the list I have heard all have good attributes to some extent however the dude that uses Nautilus 802s must only master mid range and boomy bass with a hump here and there (a joke ok). I heard somewhere that Hoffman had switched to Tetras but I may be confusing him...I just heard that there are a number of insiders that have made the switch to Tetra.

As you can see from some of my posts, I am just a hobbyist but in theory, the active crossover feeding a properly executed bi or tri-amped 2 or 3 way speaker seems to have a technical advantage over a passive speaker with a passive crossover with a random choice of speaker cable and a random choice of amplification. Do you see my point? Some people enjoy modifying the characteristics of their reproduction to suit their own tastes , which is cool, and I am looking for an integrated solution that suits my tastes. Maybe I will find it and maybe I won't but I am a bit tired of all of the electrical, cable and component variables inherent in, and to some extent nurtured by, our hobby. I would REALLY appreciate teams of designers to combine the best of class equipment, optimize it and put it out to market with the least amount of compromise and variability. A nice neutral and relatively "flattish" frequency response is what I am looking for.

I live in Southern California and we all know the price of real estate out here (its still crazy, don't let the media fool you). It's a funny exercise but I calculated the economic footprint of my systems (a dedicated room, a corner of another 2 rooms) and the dollar amount of the incremental real estate required for proper system setup is over $200,000 (approximately 400 total square feet) in my housing development. I will keep my dedicated room for now but I am open minded about searching for a solution that may even be wall mountable, hangable from the ceiling or something thereabouts that will yield excellent sound quality. Maybe I should have explained it better in the beginning but as close to a turn key solution is my quest and I will start with the speakers.

I am not interested in building a shrine to audio reproduction (as can be seen in SO many of the pictures people post of their systems....are you kidding me?) I am interested in an excellent reproduction of the music. Any and all input is appreciated and yet, a blanket dismissal of a well executed active solution is of no use. I am looking for open minds. If you prefer a passive setup and yet you heard XYZ active monitor at CES that was intriguing, that would be useful info! Mr Tennis, you seem to be pretty sold on panel speakers which is also cool however they do not tend to integrate well in a typical, well "balance" home....besides, flapping bass is not pleasing to me.

Steve, how do you like the Hsu subs and which models do you have? I have never listened to them and was unaware they were considered musical. Would appreciate your comments. Peace.