Revel Salon 2 versus WP 8


Anyone done a comparison?
psacanli
Considering the oft repeated "careful matching" when speaking of Wilson, I recently had to abolish my prejudices when I heard a demo at my local audio salon consisting of Krell evo electronics driving the new Wilson 8's. Reading the forums you would expect this combination to drill your ears from your head with laser like intensity. On the contrary. Though my experience and audio vocabulary is limited, my sensitivity to what is referred to as bright is pretty intense. What I heard was rich, smooth, dynamic and non fatiguing...now you guys quite fighting ;-)
In the mean time, go listen to any decent violin or soprano recording and see how much of it you can take on your Watt. Then try the same on the Salon or even better the V3.
And yes, I know that a violin high note is only around 3.5K but its harmonics easily excites the break-up modes of the Watt. What you should hear is clear audible “grain” riding the entire treble. It would get worst as you increase the volume. Anyway, I am probably boring you again by now…

I listen to Joshua Bell and Julia Fischer all the time among others (as well as classical music and opera occasionally with both soprano and violin!). I don't get these issues you are referring to. Both are clean sounding in my setup. I also listen to the same music on my studio monitors sometimes, which don't have the same resolution as the W/P8s (among other things).

Give some exact examples please, as previously requested. Your statements about the Wilson speakers appear to be purely theoretical. So far you have not shown any evidence that you are actually hearing this problem you are pontificating about. It is likely you are hearing something that can be explained off as other issues in the recording chain. I certainly don't hear the problems you are referring to in my setup...

To be sure, I just finished evaluating Joshua Bell playing the first 11 minutes of Tchaikovsky's Allegro moderato on both my Wilson setup and my studio monitor setup. The only issues I am finding are common to both setups and are likely related to echos of the timbre vibrato changes on the violin, likely from cavity resonance in the instrument of a high harmonic being picked up by the close miking, but that is a natural occurrence... The other thing it could be is the actual sound of his fingers or bow on the string muting certain harmonics. It is occurring on only the right side speakers where the violin output isn't as heavily weighted, and it is only during the heavier attacks. It occurs in both setups. Unfortunately, while I have been to many orchestral events, I am not an expert on violins and what exactly causes the sound I am hearing on this particular recording. So I can only offer those two ideas as possibilities.

Yes, these two sets of speakers I am using sound different because they are different speakers, but the audio content is not changing between the two setups in any way to insinuate that distortion is occurring. There is no "grain riding the entire treble" as you declared earlier. Though the studio monitors lack the same level of resolution, involving clarity, depth of soundstage and lifelike presentation (among other things), they are still decent for music editing. On the W/P8s the recording is as clear as a Bell (sorry, I couldn't resist...).

The next one I tried was a version of Mozart's Don Giovanni (Robert Norrington - EMI Classics). I used song 2 on side 3 for soprano testing. This test is the one that started to worry me, because I was hearing distortion like elements, but I believe they were due to the recording. To test the hypothesis that they were not due to tweeter break-up I tested the same area of the song over and over again at different volume levels. The issue did not get worse with increased volume (it actually seemed to dissipate with increased volume, likely because I could hear it better, though some of the volume levels I tried were obscenely loud and hurt my ears... So I only did very time limited trials at those volumes). My theory is, since these problems are happening at the loudest moments of her singing, not necessarily at the highest frequencies, that she overloaded the mikes they were using... The stability of the issue, despite changing volume levels by large amounts, would seem to support that. in any case, it isn't tweeter break-up modes, or the problem would get worse with increasing volume.

Another reason I decided to do the above experiment with changing the volumes, is in case the two speakers I am using share similar qualities between their tweeters. After all, if they exhibit similar behavior in the treble, it is possible that they have similar break-up modes. I feel confident that, even if that is true, the varying volume levels eliminates any issues I've heard as being break-up mode issues.

In short, I believe you are incorrect. IMO, your argument is the type that happens when someone applies theoretical ideals to a topic without making sure they are "sound" concepts of the audible world in practice. Perhaps you heard something, but it wasn't what you thought it was IMO. IMO, you should spend less time making assumptions from graphs and more time testing those assumptions in the real world.

I'll be waiting for you to offer up some albums, track numbers and specific times on those albums where I can hear the issues you claim to be hearing on the Watt Puppy 8s. Have you ever done any practical listening and testing with the W/P8 personally, or are you just basing your statements on graphs alone? So far you have avoided listing specific albums with which you have tested the W/P8 in order to find these issues you are claiming exist, despite my attempts to solicit that information from you...

Thanks.
I am not sure how me pointing out to what I hear as harshness and grain (Plus hollowness, lack of body, artificial upper midrange and lumpy bass) will make you hear it as well. Obviously, you purchase these speakers cause you liked the way they sound. I have said, time and again, that the WP sounds to me exactly like they measure. They always did. Way before I saw any measurements on them. I would also argue, that to an experience listener, it makes more sense for any speaker to sound more like it measure then not. Perhaps, in a way of comparison, once you hear a better implemented design, you will hear what I am talking about. Then again, perhaps not. WP8 have many audible issues that can be measured and explained. I happened to hear most of these issues when I listen to them. Telling me that all these issues, that are clearly visible in the data measured by different sources, are not audible is not a serious argument. Perhaps you do not hear them. But I sure do.
I am not sure how me pointing out to what I hear as harshness and grain (Plus hollowness, lack of body, artificial upper midrange and lumpy bass) will make you hear it as well. Obviously, you purchase these speakers cause you liked the way they sound. I have said, time and again, that the WP sounds to me exactly like they measure. They always did. Way before I saw any measurements on them. I would also argue, that to an experience listener, it makes more sense for any speaker to sound more like it measure then not. Perhaps, in a way of comparison, once you hear a better implemented design, you will hear what I am talking about. Then again, perhaps not. WP8 have many audible issues that can be measured and explained. I happened to hear most of these issues when I listen to them. Telling me that all these issues, that are clearly visible in the data measured by different sources, are not audible is not a serious argument. Perhaps you do not hear them. But I sure do.

Pointing it out will allow me to analyze whether or not what you heard was really due to break-up modes or something else. I am more than qualified to be able to listen for these kinds of issues. I've taken David Moulton's Golden Ears courses. I can hear the general shape of the frequency response. I know what distortion sounds like and I can hear it, as that was part of the training course as well. I know what phase issues sound like, as well as differing levels of compression (etc, etc... For a full list of things I have learned how to hear look up the Golden Ears course outline). I have excellent hearing for my age (I was tested around two years ago by an Otolaryngologist).

Of course, all these other issues concerning the frequency response, aren't what our argument was about. Our argument is about whether or not the break-up mode on the W/P8 is audible; your last post was full of straw-man arguments. I have things I think are imperfect about my speakers. No speaker is perfect, and all speakers are compromises from a perfect transducer. People also experience stereophonic illusions differently, so that people will subjectively prefer some compromises to others in terms of perceived "realism." Again, these weren't what out argument was about... Our argument was about the audibility of the break-up modes on the W/P8.

Where I take issue, is with people posting about hearing things that are below hearing threshold under realistic human listening conditions. You want to talk about deviations from linearity, deviations from a perfect frequency response, phase issues, and distortion issues, you will find that I won't disagree with issues that exist if they are audible under human listening conditions. All speakers suffer from issues in these measured areas in one form or another to varying degrees. Speakers compromise in some areas in order to be stronger in others. If you turn the volume up enough, every transducer starts failing miserably, it is just the nature of those kinds of physical mechanics.

How can I validate your assertions if you won't show me how you arrived at them in the "real" world so that I can repeat your experiments myself to see if what you heard could be something other than the cause you are ascribing it? So far it seems to me, based on your level of cooperation and my own testing with the type of material you recommended on the W/P8, that the placebo effect can work for people that look at graphs just as easily as it can work for people who believe in other imaginary audio phenomena.

Tell me how you tested and what testing methods you used to prove to yourself that you were hearing actual break-up modes, or at least admit you didn't do any controlled testing and are basing your statements on pure speculation. If you don't supply your testing criteria and material, I'm forced to assume you didn't test at all and are fabricating your statements about hearing break-up modes. Your statements aren't facts unless you back them up with valid testing data and allow others to see if they can find alternate explanations for what you heard... If no alternate explanations can be proven, then you may have proven a fact, but if alternate explanations can be proven true, then it isn't a fact. Your statements seem to suggest that you haven't done any detailed testing and have only done some casual listening, perhaps under less than desirable conditions.

Why are you so resistant to being cooperative? You only stand to be proved correct or to learn something... :(

Thanks.
Why are you trying so hard to defend your purchase and disprove another person's opinion. You guys disagree; leave it at that as it's quite obvious neither of you are about to come over to the other side.