How do I "compromise" speaker placement

Hell, Hi Dcstep, you said, "Most people think that you can measure your way to the best placement, but it doesn't work. See the following thread for something that actually works:" Which has the following quote:

"Anyway, Rod accepted the challenge and “The Ballad of the Runaway Horse” soon filled the room. I could attempt to reveal the whole process, but that would be futile. I witnessed the whole thing, start to finish, and actually helped a time or two and I couldn’t replicate it in a new speaker positions. I will say that he started with the bass, beginning with the speakers just a couple of inches from the rear wall and then moving them out an back while listening to the nodes. He worked the left speaker first, and then the right, focusing on getting the bass balanced between the two speakers, but with no nasty nodes in the midrange. Toe-in and rake angle were critical to the midrange and balance, but I think that getting the bass right and avoiding the midrange nodes was the single most important factors. Still, it’s a comprehensive system that you’re not going to be able to read about and then do. Listening and hearing the nodes takes some training. I was amazed to hear MAJOR changes with just ¼” of movement."

What do you think is wrong with measuring an in room response of your system? If moving the speakers as a Master Sumiko dealer does to find the best freq response in a room, why not do it by a REW measurement? Do you believe he would be doing something different? I mean, that, if we both agree that moving speakers changes the inroom response by going in and out of nulls and peaks and yes, some have a percieved better or worse sound position by just this fact, why not just measure it and use your ears for the position you prefer. But at least this way you know where the nulls and peaks are through an analysis of your room. Plus it is free and repeatable.

Then, Dave, all you have to do is go for 83db playback level! You just knew I had to throw that in! But please ignore that issue to not confuse everyone.

Bob

Bob, let's not get into that 83dB stuff again. We'll NEVER agree on that, but you're having fun with it and are welcome your concept.

As for measuring your way to proper setup, I was thinking of tape-measure, not SPL. Indeed, SPL can help, but only after you've optimized as best you can with Master Set and still want to further tame a node, either with traps or active EQ (attenuation only) such as Rives.

You've got to get the speaker working together coherantly and minimize intermodulation distortion. Once you've done that, then tweaking with room treatment or EQ can get you even flatter. Intermodualtion distortion is often heard as glare and loudness. When it's controlled, then you can actually listen several dB higher without fatigue. Said another way, 83dB with intermodulation distortion sounds louder and more fatiguing than 88dB without intermodulation distortion.

So, I say, address this first. Moving the speakers a fraction of an inch can make a big difference in perceived sound.

Dave

Hi Dave, Have you ever done an in room response of you room?
The ultimate answer to this issue is bass traps. The last approach is EQ after all room treatment is exhausted by either aesthetic reasons, AAF (audiophile acceptance factor, we can't blame it all on "the wife")or WAF.

As far as IM distortion, "how it sounds", freq extensions etc. that is all up to the system and its owner desires. I believe the better the in room response becomes (and you dont need to hire a "Master Set" as you can do this yourself with REW) the better. Even the worst speakers deserve this. You paid for the speaker, why not get all you can from them, whether you like the speakers or your equipment is "good enough" is another story. A tape measure tells you nothing, except that speakers should be (obviously) set within the room and seating position within a "1/4 inch" or some such.

Moving your speakers 1/4 inch can make a big difference in sound, and this can be measured.
Bob

I agree with Bob;

1) Common sense - use rule of thumb configurations
2) Perform in room measurememts
3) Listen and decide what works best for you (usually a compromise is needed anyway as there is no "perfect position" for all aspects of the sound)

Why are measurements so useful - because it is very hard to be objective in listening tests and the most exciting engaging position may actually be the worst in terms of accuracy and ultimate musical clarity/enjoyment...the old boom boom tizz setup that most people fall for....impressive...wow I can really hear the bass...and the highs are scintillating ....sure but it is not musical cause you just downplayed the most important element the midrange...

Bob, you can get the EQ "right" at any listening position, but if you left the IM distortion in then it'll sound like CRAP, no matter what speaker you use. Go to any audio show and you'll hear it in room after room. (Harsh, edgy, grating sound from really good components).

Like you said, "You paid for the speaker, why not get all you can from them?". Until you minimize IM distortion you can't enjoy your system to the max, no matter how flat the EQ. My method is set the speakers first, for the best combination of low IM Distortion and minimal bass nodes, then start addressing any problems that remain with room treatments and/or active EQ.

Dave