speakers for classical music

Shadorne, I think you're really overstating the dynamic range of live performance and understating the dynamic level of widely available conventional speakers.

I've taken my SPL meter to big band and orchestra rehearsals and taken readings right in the middle of the trumpet section and rhythm section. The loudest readings have been 112dB about ten-feet from a particularly obnoxious rock drummer that didn't know how to play jazz. If I put the meter on the stand in the trumpet section it only hits 110dB with the section playing just over the stand tops. (Yes, I can put it inches front my trumpet and blast 130dB, but it's extremely directional and falls off very quickly).

At the conductor's stand you're only talking 105 to 110dB at the peaks, occasionally tipping up for "punch notes", but seldom staying there for a second.

So combine performance levels around 110dB with speakers that easily reach 105 to 110dB and there's no 20dB of lost dynamic range.

I DO agree that horns have something to offer in improved dynamic range, but I think that the improvement is more incremental and less dramatic than your example would lead one to believe.

Great discussion.

Dave

Ah yes, taking a sound pressure meter along to a classical concert is so very poetic. . . it reminds me of the guy who was so enthrolled by his girlfriend's amorous enthusiasms, that he always remembered to take along a digital multimeter to measure sceintifically the peak levels of various electrochemical responses during all their overnight dates. . . . for some very odd reason, I tend to trust my ears and my emotions instead. G.

it reminds me of the guy who was so enthralled by his girlfriend's amorous enthusiasms, that he always remembered to take along a digital multimeter to measure sceintifically the peak levels of various electrochemical responses during all their overnight dates

Glandular activity or energy level is what he should be analysing...
By the way, Guido

for some very odd reason, I tend to trust my ears and my emotions instead

Tsk, tsk, isn't that hopelessly & haplessly romantic?
Really now, at this day and age!:)

So combine performance levels around 110dB with speakers that easily reach 105 to 110dB and there's no 20dB of lost dynamic range.

I don't think I am exaggerating. I don't think you will find many dynamic speakers that easily do what you say (maybe two or three?). It is extremely rare to find a dynamic non compression horn consumer audio speaker that will do 110 db SPL comfortably and without any distortion, stress or serious compression at 8 feet back ( typical listening position ).

Even the revered JL F113 sub can barely cut it - which is why some people have opted for two of them!

However bass response is not the whole issue - midrange and tweeter compression and amp clipping from non-horn designs is quite standard at these levels - I mean standard - I mean on 99% of audiophile systems. Yes indeed - talk of an "elephant" is no exaggeration.

Soundstage show a test measurement of a Watt Puppy 8 tweeter starting to compress at 95 db SPL at 2 meters! Far from disappointing - this is actually very good but quite typical. Soundstage state in their description of loudspeaker testing that they don't typically test speakers at higher levels such as 100 db SPL because most of them would be damaged at this level -they are being truthful. Sure looks like an elephant to me -when you clearly and correctly state above that a speaker shoudl EASILY reach 105 to 110 db SPL at the listening position and yet Soundstage say this would damage most speakers!

I make no exaggeration. I suspect that many Klipsch and other large horn speaker owners know what I am speaking of when they describe the "live" sound of horns - the detail - the clarity - the effortless dynamics. These speakers sound live because many of these systems can actually retain the dynamic transients of real instruments cleanly up to 110 db spl.

Unfortunately ubiquitous sound from car stereos, restaurants, boomboxes and radios with typical compressed audio CD's from recording/mastering studios (which make their audio mostly for these mediums rather than horn speaker systems) have lulled most people into being blissfully happy with conventional dynamic speakers...totally unaware that a problem even exists. Concerns/efforts are directed towards source and preamp and other issues that actually pale in comparison to the loss of dynamic range from typical speaker compression/distortion. Many people chase massive monoblock amplifiers to try to compensate for what is really a speaker design limitation.

To me this is one of the principle reasons that most people will agree that most audio playback sounds nothing like the real live thing. Some horn users know differently...all IMHO of course. I respect that you and many others will disagree. I could not expect anything less, understandably, 99% of speaker owners with conventional dynamic consumer type speakers (the type that would get damaged at 100 db SPL) will deny there is an "elephant on the table".

06-24-08: Shadorne said:

"So combine performance levels around 110dB with speakers that easily reach 105 to 110dB and there's no 20dB of lost dynamic range.

I don't think I am exaggerating. I don't think you will find many dynamic speakers that easily do what you say (maybe two or three?). It is extremely rare to find a dynamic non compression horn consumer audio speaker that will do 110 db SPL comfortably and without any distortion, stress or serious compression at 8 feet back ( typical listening position )."

I said 105-110dB and there's a lot of difference between 105 and 110, BUT I routinely measure 105dB peaks at my listening position, 7-feet back from the speakers' plain. They're only $3500 Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Baby Grands. My Rowland Continuum 500 is capable of 1000 clean watts RMS into their 4 ohm load and much higher peaks, so I'm not hamstrung for power, given their 92dB sensitivity.

Because I'm a musician and chose with my ears, maybe I gravitated toward a pretty dynamic speaker, BUT I don't really think that the VA's performance is all that rare in this regard.

Please realize that I'm not putting 105dB sine waves through my speakers. I suspect that'd be a recipe for disaster. Orchestral peaks, IME, tend to only last fractions of a second, then settle quickly down around 100dB and diminuendo back down to 80-something dB quickly.

Guido, BTW, I only take my SPL meter to rehearsals. I'd never think of sullying an actual performance with such techno-dweeb activity. ;-)

Dave