The closest approach...really

hi detlof:

sorry about the spelling. i agree with you in principle regarding evaluation of stereo systems.let me add that preference and accuracy of timbre may be two different conditions.

however, even as a reviewer, while i discuss inaccuracy of timbre frequently in my reviews ( you can read them at audiophilia.com), there is the issue of perception.

you have suggested, and so have i in other posts, inviting musicians to perform in a room, then compare a recording of the performance to the performance. assuming the feasibility of this endeavor, i suspect, that if you have more than one "audiophile"/experienced listener in a room,
there will be a disagreement as to corresponce between live and recorded sound. thus , the problem is, who is to judge ?

whenever i review a component, i am the first to admit that my perception may not agree with that of another hobbyist.

however, i agree with everything you have said, in principle. the problem is implementation. do you have any ideas ? perhaps you could be appointed by your peers as mr. golden ears. if you qualify, your prononucements would be very valuable to both designers and hobbyists.

Hello Mr Tennis,
Don't you think that perception can be trained? Especially as far as accuracy of timbre is concerned. Timbre can well be an objective thing and the better your perception of the "real thing" is, the better you will be able to assess it objectively. And yes, you are right, the more my perception is being questioned by my peers vis a vis the comparison of a life event and its facsimile, the more I can train and hone it, in discussion, retrials and verification. In our group nobody really judges. We compare notes, know our subjective preferences, try to learn from each other. We are seasoned audiophiles and have learned to dispose of pecking orders. Within our group the role of Mr. Golden Ears shifts, simply because one friend will be expert in timbre, the other in soundstage, one, because he is a trombone player in the sound of his instrument etc. Nobody pretends to know all, but as a group we would be the horror of dealers, except that a few enlightened specimen of this breed are part of our group. Implementation- and there you absolutely suggest the right thing, if I understand you correctly - can hardly be done by an individual alone, but as a group you come closer and just were you agree to disagree often important qualities of a component vis a vis the shared experience of a live event will easily come to light. To quote early TAS once again, they used to have different reviewers assess the same component and knowing their preferences, that was a real help for the reader. As an individual just by myself I would hardly qualify for Mr. Golden Ears. For once,my ears are too old. But I'm still listened to, when timbre or PRAT is being discussed. Mind you, that's easy, because most gear nowadays is pretty good at this at least as far as timbre is concerned and having been weaned on ESLs and immersed in live music from early on, this is no big feat.

Detlof, I thing we substantially agree. For me there are three things:

a) the actual reproduction of the real thing
b) our perception of the reproduction, which may differ by individuals
c) our taste

These are three different things, and I don't think we should confuse them.

a) is objective, and if we had a tool that could measure how close we get to the real thing along a number of dimensions (like a scale that measures weight), there would be no ambiguity about it. Too bad we don't have such a machine

b) is subjective by definition, but I agree with you and ears can be trained...and significantly so

c) has nothing to do with a and b. A friend of mine loves microscopic details. Too bad these details cannot be heard in life performances. Another friend of mine likes to hear big vibrations in his belly...too bad you can't hear them in a real concert.

In short, I think the fact that a few things get closer than others to the real thing is an objective fact, in my view. The fact that we as individuals may or may not perceive that is another truth. Finally, the fact that we may like the "closest approach" or not is another truth, but this has nothing to do with the other things.

hi detlof:

i like your approach of assessment by committee. however, if it were possible to remove the potential for misperception, namely, the human brain, the result would be an improvement.

measurement to the rescue ??

what about something as simple as spectral analysis.

here is a simple paradigm:

have musicians perform in a room, and take a spectral analysis (printed of course), of two minutes or so of a performance. record the performance (hopefully, a decent recording). then play the recording through a stereo system and take a spectral analysis of the stereo system's reproduction.

one now has 2 print outs. they can be compared.

of course this is not perfection. the quality of a recording comes into question, and the issue of what instruments to record is also a factor. it's a start, i think.

the whole idea is to make evaluation of a stereo system less dependent on human hearing.

Hi Ggavetti,
You are quite right I feel, with your three headings, where to my mind taste boils down to value judgements of what we have percieved. Also taste can be educated, but only if you agree upon a common benchmark in your judgment of a rig, but as you so rightly say, many audiophiles build up their systems without regard for what is "real" and why should they. We are free to follow our predilections and also my passion for "reality" is nothing but that.

Mrtennis,

Spectral analysis in the way you suggest would indeed be interesting. We once dabbled a bit in it, but gave it up, because we had endless discussions, whether disparities in the results were mainly because of the room, the placement of the performers or faults in the recording process etc.
Those experiments would have needed more scientific rigour, more intelligent planning and much better equipment than we were willing to invest in. We obviously must have thought that using our brains discussing lively with each other was more fun with our particular bent of minds.

By the way, there exists at least one well known manufacturer I know of in the high end, who prides himself that his entire chain of fiendishly expensive gear has been developed without any human hearing involved. I don't want to mention names, but his stuff sounds singularly sterile to my ears. To my mind it needs both, measurement and ears. However not only ears, but also "science" needs to be met with a healthy dose of scepticism, because often enough we only BELIEVE that what is measured has its sights on the parameters we try to assess and what has been highly praised as relevant to sound has later been proved to be a misconception.