A Perennial Debate For Which I Seek Help

You're getting way too worked up about this Douglas.

Your comments include a statement about me speaking authoritatively but apparently having little experience.

It is a pretty basic technique of argument to attack the credibility of the person if you have difficulty addressing the substantive point being considered and debated.

When you make a conclusory statement of fact based upon an unsubtantiated allegation, you unfortunately run the risk of discrediting your own credibility and opinions. For example, when you say that a person who has 37 years of experience in the hobby has "little" experience, how do you think that makes you look to an objective outsider viewing the debate?

You are correct about my intelligence though. I have five university degrees.

In view of my education and experience, I am quite capable of forming my own opinions. I need neither your agreement nor approval.

I appreciate the time you've taken to write your lengthy post. Sometimes there are points that cause one to reconsider one's own opinions. And sometimes not. I am always interested in reading the opinions of others. Keep in mind that nobody entirely trusts the opinions of others when they have an opinion of their own. That's why the government has to paint a line down the centre of a highway!

Perhaps we will meet again in some other thread.

Stringreen, You raise an interesting point about connectors/connections v wiring. FWIW I have a friend who is an astrophysist (a real rocket scientist who consults with NASA and is presently in China attending their most recent manned launch). He is NOT an audiophile and takes no interest in this hobby. One day, out of bordom, I mentioned the audiophile's facination with wiring. All he was interested in was connectors/connections. As I said, FWIW.

"If the inside was done really well, there wouldn't be anything to improve upon by changing the outside wires."

This is an authoritative statement (based on your own supposed authority). You offered no experience. I took exception to it. You still have offered no experience (aside from a nebulous reference to "37 years"), and no direct argument to counter.

"...if you have difficulty addressing the substantive point"

I did address the substantive point, quite throroughly. Actually, I had VERY little difficulty addressing the substantive point. You have not addressed it. I believe it is because you cannot. You have no leg to stand on, which is why you turned to an appeal to your intellectual pedigree. If you are offended by an allusion to lack of experience, I apologize. However, that does not make your statement in the OP correct. You may have little experience with high end audio systems, stretched over 37 years.

"I have five university degrees...In view of my education and experience, I am quite capable of forming my own opinions. I need neither your agreement nor approval."

But you could try to defend your OP logically, if you can. It smacks of inexperience and illogic. I would sincerely like to hear your defence of your OP rather than bluster. You're quite confident that your intellect has led you to the right answer. So be it.

Ah, the painted line; some will insist it's solid, others that it is dashed. ;)

It has been a pleasure arguing with you, sir. :)

In general, I would agree with Baroque Lover and Markphd on this one. I think the price of most wire out there is ridiculous, compared to the effect on the system. I would also say that in many cases, an "improvement" heard when switching out wire in a system is simply due to the fact that the electrical connection becomes cleaner when putting in a new piece of wire. I think there are many audiophiles who switch out wire way too frequently, when all they really need to do is clean their connections. I am not saying wire is not important, just that many consider it too important. As was said earlier, there is a reason dealers are quick to suggest wire as an improvement for a system - something to do with an extremely high profit margin.....

Learsfool, allow me to challenge you on this matter. What has been your experience in terms of changing cables? Have you ever attempted to use higher end power cords? Have you ever used two sets of cables (PCs, ICs and speaker) to ascertain differences between them? OR are you merely arguing from logic?

The reason I say this is because you're speaking in terms which make it appear that you have not really worked with many cables, such as, "I think... I think..." In sincerity, I ask what you know from experience?

Also, the point of argument was not price (at least not for me), it was efficacy. Having used cables in the dozens I have heard in general that cheap cables sound cheap. Better designs will cost more, sometimes reasonably so, and sometimes not.

Frankly, price seems to be THE major argument used against cables, and I feel it's a very poor one, as there are cables of all types and pricing structures. I think the audiophile protests too much who downgrades the influence of cables because they're too expensive. Usually what lies behind it is a feeling of distrust, and self-assurance (as Markphd so aptly demonstrated).

I'm sure many here feel that I think cable is too important. My guess is that in general those who have very high end rigs and have actually done the work of comparing cables (likely a very small number)will agree with me that connections are the least of it (i.e. cleaning the connections). The cables are critically important the higher the level of system.

One of the most maddening aspects of this debate which ranges ON and ON is that people continuously offer their logic, as opposed to actually DOING the experiments. And this is not an arena where a collider or lab is required; it's as easy as can be!

It seems the default argument is that cables are too expensive, dealers shuck them off on unsuspecting persons with too much naiivity and too much money, etc. How this relates to actual performance is beyond me. Trust me, I know all those arguments; I used to BE a cable discounter (no, not a salesman, but one who "discounted" the benefits of cables). Do I get too worked up over it. Probably, but it's not easy to see very intelligent people consistently glossing over beneficial improvements to their system based on faulty logic or bias against perceived businesses "out to get their money," or as you put it, "something to do with an extremely high profit margin."

All of the argumentation about pricing is tangential to the actual point, which is DO cables make a difference. Those that actually DO the comparisons usually realize they have efficacy, and when used in a suite have a large degree of efficacy.

One advantage I have as a reviewer is that I am under no compulsion to buy the cables I use. I also have vowed to share exactly what I hear in terms of their performance. If people want to believe that I operate out of motives of trying to make cable manufacturers look good so they can sell overpriced wires, so be it.

Ten years ago I would have been right there with you guys. I would have argued the best I could that wire was wire. I have too much experience in the matter now to take that position. My question is, what is the actual experience level of those who suggest cable is not that important? What I often find is that their experience level is not all that high.

Maybe it's different in your case, Learsfool. Maybe you have put together an extremely high end rig and have conducted listening tests on different cables or better yet suites of cables? If not, then what is your basis, aside from distrust, for your conclusion?

Bottom line: You'll get results using any wires. But without system matching with proper cables you'll not likely hear what an extremely good rig can do. If OK is good enough, then fine. It's not for me.