A Perennial Debate For Which I Seek Help

"If the inside was done really well, there wouldn't be anything to improve upon by changing the outside wires."

This is an authoritative statement (based on your own supposed authority). You offered no experience. I took exception to it. You still have offered no experience (aside from a nebulous reference to "37 years"), and no direct argument to counter.

"...if you have difficulty addressing the substantive point"

I did address the substantive point, quite throroughly. Actually, I had VERY little difficulty addressing the substantive point. You have not addressed it. I believe it is because you cannot. You have no leg to stand on, which is why you turned to an appeal to your intellectual pedigree. If you are offended by an allusion to lack of experience, I apologize. However, that does not make your statement in the OP correct. You may have little experience with high end audio systems, stretched over 37 years.

"I have five university degrees...In view of my education and experience, I am quite capable of forming my own opinions. I need neither your agreement nor approval."

But you could try to defend your OP logically, if you can. It smacks of inexperience and illogic. I would sincerely like to hear your defence of your OP rather than bluster. You're quite confident that your intellect has led you to the right answer. So be it.

Ah, the painted line; some will insist it's solid, others that it is dashed. ;)

It has been a pleasure arguing with you, sir. :)

In general, I would agree with Baroque Lover and Markphd on this one. I think the price of most wire out there is ridiculous, compared to the effect on the system. I would also say that in many cases, an "improvement" heard when switching out wire in a system is simply due to the fact that the electrical connection becomes cleaner when putting in a new piece of wire. I think there are many audiophiles who switch out wire way too frequently, when all they really need to do is clean their connections. I am not saying wire is not important, just that many consider it too important. As was said earlier, there is a reason dealers are quick to suggest wire as an improvement for a system - something to do with an extremely high profit margin.....

Learsfool, allow me to challenge you on this matter. What has been your experience in terms of changing cables? Have you ever attempted to use higher end power cords? Have you ever used two sets of cables (PCs, ICs and speaker) to ascertain differences between them? OR are you merely arguing from logic?

The reason I say this is because you're speaking in terms which make it appear that you have not really worked with many cables, such as, "I think... I think..." In sincerity, I ask what you know from experience?

Also, the point of argument was not price (at least not for me), it was efficacy. Having used cables in the dozens I have heard in general that cheap cables sound cheap. Better designs will cost more, sometimes reasonably so, and sometimes not.

Frankly, price seems to be THE major argument used against cables, and I feel it's a very poor one, as there are cables of all types and pricing structures. I think the audiophile protests too much who downgrades the influence of cables because they're too expensive. Usually what lies behind it is a feeling of distrust, and self-assurance (as Markphd so aptly demonstrated).

I'm sure many here feel that I think cable is too important. My guess is that in general those who have very high end rigs and have actually done the work of comparing cables (likely a very small number)will agree with me that connections are the least of it (i.e. cleaning the connections). The cables are critically important the higher the level of system.

One of the most maddening aspects of this debate which ranges ON and ON is that people continuously offer their logic, as opposed to actually DOING the experiments. And this is not an arena where a collider or lab is required; it's as easy as can be!

It seems the default argument is that cables are too expensive, dealers shuck them off on unsuspecting persons with too much naiivity and too much money, etc. How this relates to actual performance is beyond me. Trust me, I know all those arguments; I used to BE a cable discounter (no, not a salesman, but one who "discounted" the benefits of cables). Do I get too worked up over it. Probably, but it's not easy to see very intelligent people consistently glossing over beneficial improvements to their system based on faulty logic or bias against perceived businesses "out to get their money," or as you put it, "something to do with an extremely high profit margin."

All of the argumentation about pricing is tangential to the actual point, which is DO cables make a difference. Those that actually DO the comparisons usually realize they have efficacy, and when used in a suite have a large degree of efficacy.

One advantage I have as a reviewer is that I am under no compulsion to buy the cables I use. I also have vowed to share exactly what I hear in terms of their performance. If people want to believe that I operate out of motives of trying to make cable manufacturers look good so they can sell overpriced wires, so be it.

Ten years ago I would have been right there with you guys. I would have argued the best I could that wire was wire. I have too much experience in the matter now to take that position. My question is, what is the actual experience level of those who suggest cable is not that important? What I often find is that their experience level is not all that high.

Maybe it's different in your case, Learsfool. Maybe you have put together an extremely high end rig and have conducted listening tests on different cables or better yet suites of cables? If not, then what is your basis, aside from distrust, for your conclusion?

Bottom line: You'll get results using any wires. But without system matching with proper cables you'll not likely hear what an extremely good rig can do. If OK is good enough, then fine. It's not for me.

I thought I had made it clear that I was not saying that wire was unimportant. I certainly agree that some designs sound better than others, and I did indeed audition some different cables and interconnects, both at my dealer's and again at home. My personal feeling (based both on my own listening primarily, and secondarily on research and opinions of others) is that one should buy wire from the lower end of a respected company's line. Generally speaking, it will sound almost as good, or in many cases as good as the high end of the line, many differences being very negligible compared to the cost difference. Wire is undeniably where many dealers make a very large part of their profit margin, and there are far too many dealers out there who push ridiculously expensive wire for that reason. I would agree with the often quoted general rule that one should spend no more than 5% of the total system budget on the wire.

The other part of my post I want to repeat (and again, this is based on both my own experience and the opinions of respected dealers and audiophiles) is that too many people switch out cables and interconnects far too often. If you haven't cleaned your connections in a year, almost any new wire you put in is going to sound better at first, simply because there is a cleaner electrical connection. I was advised to clean the connections at least every six months, and to unplug them every so often in between as well. I have found this to be very good advice.

I would also add that in my opinion (which I know to be shared by many others) wire will never make a system sound better. Any element in the audio change degrades the signal, so one should not look at wire as a savior of a mediocre system, or try to make a system sound "better" using wire. I would also disagree that it is necessarily more important in a more expensive system. It is more a matter of choosing wire that does as little harm as possible (perhaps what some call "neutral", though I dislike that term). I have been told that Paul Klipsch used lamp cords for speaker cable, though I certainly would not advocate that myself. All I'm saying really is not that wire is unimportant, but that it is greatly overrated in importance by many, especially those in the industry who are interested only in profits.

Learsfool, It seems you are essentially saying that cables are unimportant past a certain price point. You lay out your logic for remaining only with economical cables from a variety of manufacturers. Though I disagree, I respect your thinking. I am inclined to agree with you more in reference to economical rigs, but not agree as the quality of the system rises. At the level of $50-75K systems and above I almost completely disagree.

A question and an Observation:

1. What are you using to clean the connections?

2. If you unplug the cables for a while, some suggest that it "resets" the cable and dielectric charges are lost, thus inhibiting the performance temporarily. It matters not to me, but I was not sure if you knew of this theory in regards to cable performance. I am sincerely curious; do you unplug the cables to let them "breathe"? Do you feel they improve with a "rest"? I'm not being sarcastic, but I've not discussed this with anyone prior. Please describe this facet of using cables.

What fascinates me is that your "let the cables rest" idea is dielectrically opposed (WOA! Fun pun!!) to the "keep it plugged in at all costs" crowd. I want to find out more about your perspective on it.

To me, the "dielectric theory" has not passed my Law of Efficacy. i.e. It has not been significant enough, even on "steeper end" rigs, to be important. :)