Subs & Group Delay


Any opinions as to the value of this spec vs. distortion specs. At any given price it seems that you can choose to optimze one or the other - or maybe compromisse a bit on each. Even the pricey JL 113 can't touch the $600 SVS for distortion at 95db (anechoic), but it shows about half the group delay. I'll try to audition both, but in the meantime, any opinions on the relative merits of these measures would be appreciated.

Marty
martykl
I'd go group delay first as it is no use having low distortion if there is a whole load of resonance or ringing from your sub - remember your room is going to resonate too! So less resonance or the sooner the sub stops ringing (overdamped) the better IMHO. Ideally you want both low group delay AND low distortion AND high SPL output but it is expensive to get all three...

a good rule of thumb is less than 25 ms group delay at 20 Hz This corresponds to 20 feet added distance between something you hear at 20 Hz and its upper harmonics at 80 Hz (which may only have a 2 msec delay). It is probably not audible at this level so bass will be nice and tight and sound integrated with the rest of the music (kick drum is real tangible and there). Delays of 50 msec are probably becoming audible (nearly a full cycle) but this is all hotly debated. The problem is that the tweeter sound of the kick drum beater hitting the skin may last a mere 2 msecs - so if the deepest sounds arrive delayed by 50 msec then it is going to sound like delayed room or concert hall reverberation rather than the instrument itself - so while this may be an added and pleasing effect on dinosaur footsteps it may cause the kick drum to sound distant and less "integrated"or lacking "punch". (You can look up Hass Effect to understand how our brain separate sounds that arrive much later - we simply interpret these late arrivals as being reverberant reflected sounds and NOT the primary sound.)

As a rule of thumb, ported subwoofers generally have twice the phase shift and twice the group delay of sealed subwoofers and oscillate twice as long after the signal stops. That is why I claim that "as a rule of thumb" sealed subs will be tighter and better sounding even if they have poor SPL output. (Of course a ported sub that is tuned way way low at 10 or even 5 HZ is likely to sound pretty damn good and close to sealed sub - so it is only a "rule of thumb")
Low-order harmonic distortion is benign. I'm aware of a controlled listening test in which 30% second harmonic distortion was statistically undetectable - so don't go nuts pursuing low harmonic distortion specs.

Group delay typical of a vented woofer system has been shown to be detectable on test tones, but to the best of my knowldege not conclusively so on music program material - thus the "hotly debated" reference in Shadorne's post.

In my opinion the in-room frequency response makes a bigger difference.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer
Hi Duke, you said, "In my opinion the in-room frequency response makes a bigger difference."

How close of a freq response do you think is "needed", for low freq say from 20 to 100hz to sound good? My thought is +- 3db with one to two peaks and nulls up to 5 to 6db will be close enough for good playback, in most rooms.
What are your thoughts on this?

Bob
I'm aware of a controlled listening test in which 30% second harmonic distortion was statistically undetectable

Second harmonic is fairly benign but 3rd harmonic is bad - so it depends on the type of distortion. The other issue is that 1% distortion at the 3rd harmonic of a 20 Hz fundamental will sound nearly equally as loud as the fundamental note itself due to your increased hearing sensitivity at 60 Hz compared to 20Hz (see Equal loudness contours). So in the end, a distorting subwoofer simply populates the bandwidth where your hearing is much more highly sensitive from 60 to 180 Hz with audible response. This is may be quite the opposite of your original intention when buying the sub - which was to augment the bottom octave rather than overwhelm the 60 to 180 Hz range.