Top notch speakers with their own sub

I will admit not knowing much about bass equalization. All I know is that independent subs for home theater has this phase adjustment that does not work well at all. I can definitely hear where the bass comes from, despite the common claimed for non-directional effect. With just a brief look at Audiokinesis, I don't know the details. Can these 4 subs be integrated into any full size speakers? Or is this the case that you have to buy their main speakers as well?

I hear you, Spatine. Setting up subs right can be tricky and I think most folks don't have the patience for it. The tendency is to set them up in whatever is the most convenient spot in the room, with the settings juiced so they are always audible and thus justify the purchase. I've found the better integration comes in setting up where you don't even notice them, but you are aware of their presence in those really deep moments of the music - that's exactly what they are for after all. Duke does sell his satellites separately (I think he calls them "The Swarm" when sold that way). I've only heard them with Duke's speakers so I could not comment as to how well or how easily they integrate with other speakers, but the principal he's based the design is very compelling and it sure sounded wonderful in the room at The Show that I heard them in. You can contact him through his website. He is a member of this forum as well. The other way to go would be with two conventional subs like JL Fathoms or Gothams (excellent subs), but you would have to have the patience to set them up properly or hire a local dealer or installer, or alternatively find a knowledgeable friend who might help you. If your subs are making themselves apparent in the way you describe then they likely are not set up right. If you want to skip the 'hassle' of setting up a sub, and prefer to just get something that is integrated into the mains, I think you can certainly find something that will make you happy among suggestions here, as well as other offerings out there. I would just reiterate that those solutions are not the best and most natural sounding in my own experience, when it comes to low bass and integrating a full range in a listening room. If your budget is $15K and you are looking at all-in-one full range speakers that do bass very well, my favorites have been Hansen's Prince which you just might find used for a bit above that price if you're very lucky. TAD Pioneer's Ref 1 was also outstanding in integrating a full range, as is Daedelus Ulysses speaker. None of these uses an integrated sub, but all have a very natural integration of their low-end. I've heard Wilson speakers on a number of occasions and they've never grabbed me as something I'd want to drop that kind of money on. Avalon's floorstanders also do a wonderful job of integrating the full range, and you may be able to find their excellent Indras in your price range used. Again, do check out Duke's Planetarium offerings and write to him for his own take on bass, subs, etc. He really does a great job and at fairly reasonable costs which I believe fall into your budget (I think the Planetarium Beta with his larger full-range speakers is around $10K). Duke's a great fellow too.

Good luck!

Can the MTS be surpassed, even today? Its technology is far from outdated, its form factor is supreme (it takes up less horizontal space than a monitor) it is relatively efficient (allowing wide latitude in choice of amps) and its high powered, RABOS system can eliminate the primary bass resonance and integrate into your room better than all but the most expensive subwoofers (and without digital eq!) Unless the rest of your system is beyond belief, you might be better served improving other components.

Thanks for the kind words, Jax2.

The distributed multisub concept is something I learned from Earl Geddes. Here's a brief synopsis in his words:

"The modal response of rooms at low frequencies causes large peaks and dips in the overall response of a system...

"By using multiple subs distributed around the room, low frequency response can be smoothed out. Placing multiple subs in multiple locations, each sub will excite the room’s modes in a different way. While the response of each would still have the anomalies suggested above, the total combined response is much smoother than any of the individual responses. In essence, they balance each other out, resulting in a much smoother overall response."

Todd Welti of Harmon International has published multiple technical papers on the subject, as well as a non-technical paper which is posted on Harmon's website. Welti did not investigate asymmetrical sub placement, but this paper is still excellent information for anyone interested in a high quality subwoofer system:

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

There are of course other issues, but a configuration that is conducive to relatively smooth in-room response is a good starting point.

One primary requirement for a distributed multisub system is a steep-slope lowpass filter (at least for those subs which are positioned away from the main speakers) so that you don't have subs reproducing lower midrange energy loud enough to betray their locations.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer

Spatine,

In theory, one great advantage of subs is that they can be placed where they work best (against the walls) - which is almost always far from where main speakers work best (away from the walls). You lose this option when the subs and mains share a cabinet.

When bass is generated out away from the walls in a room, the omnidirectional, long wavelength signals (i.e. bass) will reflect back off the walls and cause cancellation (nulls, or dips in response) at some particular frequencies and reinforcement (peaks) at others. Near wall placement reduces this bass effect because the strongest reflected signal is virtually coincident with the original signal. There is nearly uniform reinforcement evenly across the sub's entire output, and you can adjust (lower, relative to free space placement) the output level of the sub accordingly. To (virtually) eliminate the remaining peaks and nulls, you can EQ, or try Duke's "distributed" system which provides flexibility in using one (or more) sub's peaks to offset the other subs' dips.

BTW, the other approach is to find mains that are designed to work up against (or inside) a wall. Shadorne's soffetted system is one approach, Roy Allison's designs have offered a variation on the theme for a long time.

The Deqx idea I mentioned in my previous post is simply a "brute force" EQ solution. It allows the peaks and nulls to develop and beats them into submission with EQ. Audyssey and Velodyne (among others) also make EQ products for this purpose.

BTW, I can't localize the (carefully integrated) subs in my EQ'd system, even though they're far from the main speakers. Of course, YMMV.

Good Luck

Marty

I don’t know any of the mentioned brands of speakers in this topic, except for Wilson Audio. Venturing beyond the big brands does have the typical advantages and disadvantages we all know about. To do proper homework I really should look at the reverse role and take on what Lloydc said, that is if anybody wants to join the discussion and throw a monkey wrench. Is Prelude MTS really that outdated? Frankly speaking, edging out the well respected Watt/Puppy 8, which sure is current in technological development, is no easy task. Yet in my opinion the Prelude MTS has more details, fuller body, and less harsh a presentation. Granted that in the grand scale, mine is closer to the Watt/Puppy than the Maxx. An upgrade for my speakers without venturing out into the unknown (brands and sub equalization technology) would be getting the Wilson Maxx, or say the Gershman Black Swan. These are wonderful speakers from high to the very low frequency; however they are out of my price range.