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tonearms with VTA-towers for true "VTAF"

Hi All,
I think the time has come to look at some more 'advanced' tone-arms that sport VTA towers. ('Old skool' is getting us not much further with this, or?))

During a lot of other, related postings it seems a good subject, I think.

Our experts, all might agree, that:

1) If you want to push the envelope for BEST possible replay, constant VTA 'adaptation' is an unavoidable matter. (nobody said madness :-)

2) I understand this means a TOP cart, inevitably with a 'most modern' type Fine-Line contact stylus, forget elliptical or can one even mention the word, spherical?

Add some TOP cantilever materials like:
- Beryllium (hard to get, as it is a very tricky material to work with i.e. very poisonous in powder form),
- Boron (which mostly has replaced the former),
- Titanium?? (was used by some of the better AT carts),
- Ruby, well some like it I hear,
- Sapphire?? (some one liked that better then Ruby, but VERY little seems about),
- Diamond (see e.g. the DV odd-ball 17D3), etc.

This should make for some VERY detailed and revealing reproduction (even in an MM cart), add to this the most revealing ingredients of a TOP LO-MC.

The end result is, that you can now here some marvellous detail (carved-outness of images, stage-depth -width, and on), B U T ONLY if your VTA is at its VERY closest to what the record was cut to! (Else you find your cart, record, arm, phono-pre, .... system sux :-)

More interesting yet, even the same vinyl brands have not always used the same cutting angles (over time). Anything from just under 20deg. to about 25deg. is what we find!

Next, these high res. styli also have each one their own preferred SRA / VTA angles, i.e. the stylus line-ridge related to the cantilever is a variable too.

Add this all up and you have a problem, particularly if you care for truly top play-back.

If you have a "VTA tower" it only seem to take 15sec. to change to the correct, previously found VTA, you do need to be organised though. If you want some know-how, Doug can tell, see also the discussion under:
"VTA setting for 'parabolic' and 'elliptical' styli"
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1244713018

There we have mentioned 3 current contenders, I quote: "Graham, VPI, TriPlanar plus a few very costly linear trackers..."

WHAT ABOUT THE: Kuzma 4Point?!

If I wouldn't like e.g.:
- multiple added connections (Graham, 7 in total?)
- wobbly Unipivots (VPI)
- too many fiddly pieces to make up the arm (TriPlanar)
- air bearings, or worse yet 'electronic' arm-feed

If I'd have an issue with these, I've no working solution to the VTAF I'd be looking for.

What say you?

Greetings,
Axel

axelwahl
dougdeacon
3,338 posts
 
Fleib wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you, but to me improper VTA/SRA is much more objectionable than a bit more alignment error.
That's also how my ears work.
larryi
4,067 posts
 
I don't really know how audible is incorrect alignment because I have never systematically changed alignment to determine what is audible.

Given how much easier it is to change VTA/SRA, however, I have done that experiment. I too have noticed that small VTA/SRA changes seem to have a pretty significant impact, particularly on high frequency sibilance and edginess. Even a change in height of less than 1mm can change the sound quite a bit even though that translates to a fraction of one degree of change in angle.
halcro's avatar
halcro
2,664 posts
 
I certainly hope that vinyl reproduction is more "robust" than what perfectionist insist on for alignment accuracy and optimization for all other parameters. It would be nice to own something like the SMARTractor and an oscilloscope for setting azimuth, etc., but, it would be a real tragedy if these things were necessities.
LOL Larry....😄
When I think that for over twenty years I set up my cartridges with a generic arc cut from Hi-Fi Answers and pasted onto a wobbly thick bit of cardboard....⁉️
I recall being just as thrilled with the sound then as I am now however...👍
ct0517's avatar
ct0517
2,041 posts
 
06-17-09: Dertonarm
Dear Axel, Thuchan can give you some comments about the Kuzma 4P mounted on his Garrad 501.
So far the one and only tonearm ever on the market who did it "right" (i.e. - VTA adjustment) is the venerable ET2.
Its VTA adjustment is a circle-segment - thus the effective length is the same at all various points/heights. All other tonearms - all pivot tonearms - do alter their effective length and the alignment when the VTA is altered.
Hard - isn't it.
A true trade-off and showing once again how much room there is for improvement in tonearm design.

Cheers,
D.

hmmm....

"A true trade-off and showing once again how much room there is for improvement in tonearm design."

Well this thread is now over six years old. And D since this time has come out with his own tonearm. Did he address this VTA issue with his tonearm ? Curious... Anyone ?

06-17-09: Dertonarm
Dear Axel, yes, a FR-64s w/B-60 VTA-on-the-fly base.
Still about the most comfortable VTA ever made.
Not really a surprise this proposal coming from me sooner or later........

The new VTA-base by TW is another option and more universal.
The Technics EPA-500 system tonearm is another.
Then there is the old working horse MA-505.

The ET2(2.5) performance in the lower register do very much depend on air flow and pressure. With the usually used Hi-blow and Wisa pumps its indeed quite poor. But there are other more sophisticated options regarding air supply and these do greatly enhance the bass performance - but still not to top-notch-level, while comparable with most that is there today for much higher retail.
The ET2.5 is vastly underated and needs only a bit of brain and investment in the periphery to become a top contender.

Cheers,
D.

The ET 2 and 2.5 when used with Hi-Blow and Wisa pumps are just fine and very natural sounding .....with a correct setup .....per the manual, and herein lies the root of "some" reported problems.

For the Audiogon Record. :^)

Years ago when I was ready to plunk down a chunk of change on a new Deck (you know how it is when you have extra rope for the Audio Hobby Hangman ?)
I reached out to a few people about La Platine; one person of which was D as it was his ref deck. . He was very helpful and steered me away from the current MDF plinthed Platines and towards the vintage version. Between emails I asked him about his ET 2.0 and 2.5 setups. He indicated to me that he set them up with the most counterweight lead possible on the I Beam, and closest to the spindle. Well this is in fact an incorrect setup as documented in the ET2 manual, and, in my days of experimentation (you guys know how that can be too - right ?) led to significant bass resonance in the 100-150 hz (thereabouts) area in my rooms. This bass resonance leads to ill defined bass especially with full range speakers. (Speakers that go to 20 hz and do not lose any DB getting there).

btw - there happens to be Audiogon thread that discusses proper ET2 setup techniques. One could also read the ET2 manual. But our thread is much more fun ( I think) and most of the ET2 manual is now probably on the thread anyway ! lol

Back to the story.
Well, I didn't have the heart to discuss this with D at the time. In hindsight now his ET2 setup was probably influenced by his self professed bias toward the FR tonearms; I found my FR64s to be a very high quality, very slick tonearm, but it did have a LF resonance in my setup. Hmmm.....

If D happens to see this ... hope u r well and I never did receive the thread for La Platine you were to send me to try out.

Anyway. Just saying and from personal experience.

The theory guys can now get back to ......... their theory. :^)

Cheers and have fun listening while you still are able to.
ct0517's avatar
ct0517
2,041 posts
 
06-17-09: Dertonarm
Dear Axel, Thuchan can give you some comments about the Kuzma 4P mounted on his Garrad 501.
So far the one and only tonearm ever on the market who did it "right" (i.e. - VTA adjustment) is the venerable ET2.
Its VTA adjustment is a circle-segment - thus the effective length is the same at all various points/heights. All other tonearms - all pivot tonearms - do alter their effective length and the alignment when the VTA is altered.
Hard - isn't it.
A true trade-off and showing once again how much room there is for improvement in tonearm design.

Cheers,
D.

hmmm....

"A true trade-off and showing once again how much room there is for improvement in tonearm design."

Well this thread is now over six years old. And D since this time has come out with his own tonearm. Did he address this VTA issue with his tonearm ? Curious... Anyone ?

06-17-09: Dertonarm
Dear Axel, yes, a FR-64s w/B-60 VTA-on-the-fly base.
Still about the most comfortable VTA ever made.
Not really a surprise this proposal coming from me sooner or later........

The new VTA-base by TW is another option and more universal.
The Technics EPA-500 system tonearm is another.
Then there is the old working horse MA-505.

The ET2(2.5) performance in the lower register do very much depend on air flow and pressure. With the usually used Hi-blow and Wisa pumps its indeed quite poor. But there are other more sophisticated options regarding air supply and these do greatly enhance the bass performance - but still not to top-notch-level, while comparable with most that is there today for much higher retail.
The ET2.5 is vastly underated and needs only a bit of brain and investment in the periphery to become a top contender.

Cheers,
D.

The ET 2 and 2.5 when used with Hi-Blow and Wisa pumps is just fine and very natural sounding .....with a correct setup .....per the manual, and herein lies the root of "some" reported problems.

For the Audiogon Record. :^)

Years ago when I was ready to plunk down a chunk of change on a new Deck (you know how it is when you have extra rope for the Audio Hobby Hangman ?)
I reached out to a few people about La Platine; one person of which was D as it was his ref deck. . He was very helpful and steered me away from the current MDF plinthed Platines and towards the vintage version. Between emails I asked him about his ET 2.0 and 2.5 setups. He indicated to me that he set them up with the most counterweight lead possible on the I Beam, and closest to the spindle. Well this is in fact an incorrect setup as documented in the ET2 manual, and, in my days of experimentation (you guys know how that can be too - right ?) led to significant bass resonance in the 100-150 hz (thereabouts) area in my rooms. This bass resonance leads to ill defined bass especially with full range speakers. (Speakers that go to 20 hz and do not lose any DB getting there).
btw - there happens to be Audiogon thread that discusses proper ET2 setup techniques. One could also read the ET2 manual. But our thread is much more fun ( I think) and most of the ET2 manual is now probably on the thread anyway ! lol

Back to the story.
Well, I didn't have the heart to discuss this with D at the time. In hindsight now his ET2 setup was probably influenced by his self professed bias toward the FR tonearms; I found my FR64s to be a very high quality, very slick tonearm, but it did have a LF resonance in my setup. Hmmm.....

If D happens to see this ... hope u r well and I never did receive the thread for La Platine you were to send me to try out.

Anyway. Just saying and from personal experience.

The theory guys can now get back to ......... their theory. :^)

Cheers and have fun listening while we are still are able to.
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