Jazz for aficionados

Accounting for the universal truth that there are exceptions to every rule, what would have happened to Ornette is that he probably would not have become what he did as an artist. Why? Because greatness doesn't happen in a vacuum. A musician needs to be where he is going to get his ass kicked and being a big fish in a small pond is seldom the way. No one is saying that there aren't really good players in smaller towns. We love our local heroes and many are really good players who could probably reach even higher levels of ability if they were in an environment where they weren't the best player in town and where the scene is so vibrant that creativity is inspired. Imo, we tend to romanticize their place in the grand scheme of things. Good players, yes, some of whom could be one of the pool of really good players in scenes like NY, LA, Chicago etc.; but, players like Pepper Adams or Ornette are at the very top of the heap (in very different ways; duh). Players of that caliber usually feel that that HAVE to be in a place where they can grow; it's not an option for them. Imo, that hunger also says something about their potential. IMO.

Thanks for the nice personal story.

'The idea of forgotten player' is a thought that comes to me quite often, more so when man digs deep into world of jazz. Aldo Frogmans explanation is quite logical, my personal perspective is somehow different, and I would like to share some thoghts on that matter. One thing that remains unknown to me is a question if somebody was 'the player' during some specific time, and later, during time and with a lack of interest for jazz music in general, faded into oblivion, or maybe one was never at all under the spotlight. For those informations I would appreciate the thoughts of ones whe were the witnesses of that time, like O-10. The obvious fact is that even the 'wellknown' figures led a hard life, and numerous others who perhaps were equally good players, never made it, for one reason or another, and that happend more often than is possible to blame on someones lack of musical expertise. So, I would like to start a discussion about it, and will post few clips, with players who are not so 'popular'. (guess that word popular is oximoron in jazz)
Todays start, will begin with few guitar players

Thornel Schwartz, recorded many early albums with Jimmy Smith, and with other great organists as well. Made only one album as a leader, as far as I know.

https://youtu.be/8tgpOBAZ1hE

Ray Crawford, played with Ahmed Jamal trio, with Jimmy Smith as well, and so on, again, only one album as leader

https://youtu.be/fka0tp0WGPs

How about Dempsey Wright? I think the west coast guys on this record would not keep him company if he is no good.

https://youtu.be/Y96sawbRZe0

Skeeter Best? Eddie McFaden? No albums at all, and yet, great players. Imho the list is long. Looking forward to hear some other suggestions

Alex, thanks for the clips and for sharing your thoughts. Some more of mine:

Context, context, context. Very important when trying to find answers to your interesting questions. Btw, I think it's wonderful for music lovers to look at these issues; puts the work of favorite artists in a better perspective and gives more insight into the music.

Something that isn't always given enough scrutiny when looking for answers to these questions is the role of the producer. Every recording lists a producer. He is often the guy that says: "Hey, I know this good, or promising young guitar player. I want to record him. I think I will hire so and so to back him up on the record"; or, even, "Hey, Milt Jackson is really hot right now. Pablo records has him on contract. My label Slick Records doesn't have a vibes player on the roster. Who can I get to fill that slot and capitalize on the current listener interest in the vibraphone?". Given the relatively short supply of jazz vibraphonists, he may end up recording a second tier vibes player. The point is that simply because a player has a record contract or records with top tier players does not automatically mean that he, himself, is a top tier player. I know it takes a bit of the romance out of it, but most of even the top players are "guns for hire". Of course, the great ones will not play for a lame "leader"; but, that leader may sometimes not be on the same level as his sidemen.

I cannot think of one single example of a player who was "the one" and then simply disappeared from the jazz scene. Sure, new players and new styles come along and supplant, in general level of popularity, the older player. But, any player who is "the one" will have, by definition, a substantial body of recorded work and that will live on; in the context of general declining interest in the art form. Example: Joe Lovano is probably "the one" right now in the tenor saxophone world. Does that mean that Sonny Rollins (who is still alive and playing) has been forgotten? I don't think so! Re your clips:

When you refer to these players as "equally as good" as the high profile players, what higher profile players are you referring to?

Thornell Schwartz. My first thought was, here we go again, nice and easy twelve bar blues. Says little about the player's range. Even in that context, and compared to someone like Kenny Burrell, a mediocre player. And that tenor player!? Ouch!! Sorry.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=dIZQYzQoruc

Ray Crawford. Nice player. Still, compared to, say, George Benson or Wes Montgomery? Not quite.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?list=PL8DB57484F40BBCC3&v=SLG2ssX2oto

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=AbXHRF8D7ag

Dempsey Wright. Best of the three by a long shot; albeit in a very different style. Very nice player. Still, compared to Joe Pass or Herb Ellis and, well.....

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=_RPkohp10EQ

Speaking of the twelve bar blues:

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=3muZKOxqtGU

Debate is a good thing. I'll stick to my contention that, by and large, there is usually a real reason that most players who are forgotten are forgotten and some remain in the limelight (or in record collections).

Frogman, lets try to put things in some context, and than hopefully we shall make some conclusions.
'the great ones will not play for a lame "leader"; but, that leader may sometimes not be on the same level as his sidemen.'
I guess that goes other way too, the 'great ones' probbably would not pick the 'lame' sidemen.
My question for you is this, if the couple of the 'great ones' repeatedly choose the same guy for their albums, would not that be the sign that he is 'considered' as 'equal? If Randy Crawford was good enough for A.Jamal and J.Smith, certainly I would give him some credit.
The questions is should he be compared to the so called 'best', like Wes or Burrell? (I am not a fan of Benson)
If the answer is 'yes' than, I think, we are only narrowing our choices.
How many players could be in that 'league' where there is
'no comparations'with others? Not much, I guess.
This is not the best analogy, but, should we compare the skills of every artist with ones of Rembrandt?
Than, you said 'I cannot think of one single example of a player who was "the one" and then simply disappeared from the jazz scene.'
How about these couple clips?

Already above mentioned (with Leo Wright) trumpet player Dave Burns

https://youtu.be/5ebeHafmsDA

Another trumpet player, Howard McGhee,like him a lot

https://youtu.be/nilp-xPq0Y0

Herbie Nichols, complex figure

https://youtu.be/e2lSBn1egDE

Billy Bauer, I have mentioned him here before,played with Konitz, made only one album as leader

https://youtu.be/G9x_74wc71c

Or maybe Phineas Newborn Jr. Aldo, he is already considered as someone 'famous' at least among musicians.

https://youtu.be/mADxQjfxL54

Michael 'Dodo' Marmorosa perhaps?

https://youtu.be/cudV3FkT3bY

Would like to hear others people opinions on subject.
Hope its not a dull topic

Alex, I mean no disrespect but, as I see it, you are contradicting yourself. First you make the statement that the mentioned "forgotten" players are "equally as good" as the not forgotten, and now you state that they shouldn't be compared to the Rembrandts of musicians. Well, if Rembrandt was the best artist (your suggestion) and if certain other artists are "equally as good", then shouldn't those other artists be compared to Rembrandt?

Re "the one"

Now I am not quite sure what you mean by " the one". You asked if there has been a player that was considered and be "the one" at some point and then disappeared. Let's see: Lester Young, Bird, Coltrane, Miles, Cannonball, Bill Evans, Lee Morgan, Freddy Hubbard, to name a few, were all considered to be "the one" at some point. None of them have been forgotten. I am sorry, but to my ears none of the players in your first post are in that league, the "Rembrandt league"; and none, to the best of my knowledge, were ever considered to be "the one". As I see it, the fact that they have not remained as famous as the one's I mentioned corroborates my point.
BTW, I acknowledged that Randy Crawford is a good player in my comments; only that I dont think he is as good as players like Wes or Burrell; both of whom (certainly Wes) were considered to be "the one". I don't understand why you feel I didnt "give him some credit". Also, with the exception of Dave Burns I consider the players in your last post to be better players than those in your previous post. And I don't consider Herbie Nichols, Marmarosa, Phineas Newborn nor McGhee to be "forgotten" players at all. I don't consider Dave Burns to be in the same league as Miles, Hubbard, Morgan, Navarro, Clifford and many others.

You seem to have a broader, more inclusive, range for what you consider "the best" and my range is narrower. Works for you, and mine works for me; there is no problem. BTW, I have no idea why Jimmy Smith hired Randy Crawford other than the fact that Crawford is a pretty good player and probably couldn't afford Wes Montgomery as his sideman :-)

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=VA1FbojzULk

BTW, the lead alto in the saxophone section is the great Phil Woods; RIP.