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Thiel with "Warmest" Midrange? 2.7 vs 3.7 vs Older

I know, I know, Thiels of all speakers are NOT known for a "warm" midrange, at least that's their reputation.

But I'd nonetheless be interested in how people would rate the general sense of midrange "warmth" and "fullness/richness" of the various Thiel models through the years, including the CS 3.7 and 2.7 models.

(I've noted that around the time of the CS 7.2 and CS6, I was actually seeing the descriptors like "smooth" and "warm balance" which is not something I'm seeing much in descriptions of the newer 2.7 and 3.7).

So I'd be interested in such comparisons between older to newer Thiels through the years, and for the 2.7 vs the 3.7.

Feel free to stop reading there, but for those interested below I'll share my thoughts about Thiel, why I'm asking this, and why I have "Thiel Fever" again…..

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I'm on a quest to try Thiel speakers in my system again, and I'm particularly interested in the culmination of Jim Thiel's efforts, the CS 3.7. But it's been a long time since I've heard Thiels and unfortunately as we know, they've been discontinued, and all the product dumped by dealers. (I think I missed the boat by literally a month or two, my zeal-for-Thiel re-igniting just last month).

Like many audio-nuts, I've gone through periods of crazy extensive speaker auditioning (though I'm talking well in the past now, I've kept up minimally in the last decade or so).

I love a warm, full midrange (like many others here) and I feel that one of the defining elements of "real voices and acoustic instruments" is a sense of that organic warmth. That's after all why I also favour tube amplification (the ones that tend to reduce the mechanical elements of the sound - I happen to use Conrad Johnson amps at the moment).

So why am I after Thiels, given their reputation for leaner, cooler sound?

I'd always admired the Thiel speakers, starting with the 3.6 as I remember. They always struck me as somehow "telling me the truth" about a recording, and how those instruments sounded, in an almost Quad ESL type manner. (I don't mean the Whole Truth, neither being perfect speakers, but they gave some sort of window on the truth, a sense of accuracy within their limits, that seemed to separate them from the pack). So there was a certain rightness of tone I'd hear through the Thiels.

And one of the main characteristics I LOVED about the Thiels is one often mentioned in reviews: their amazing focus and density of sound. It's not just the concept of pin-point imagine per se, in terms of being able to point to exactly where an instrument is playing in the soundstage, but the sense of all the sonic information of that instrument coalesced into a dense whole - giving a better sense of solid objects vibrating sound in front of me, vs most other speakers. I think that was something that really connected me to their sound. I found even mediocre old recordings, though revealed as such, gained more life, drive and liveliness through the Thiels than the soggier-sound approach that can cover up harshness, but also
reduce the excitement of the presentation.

On the down side, Thiels to me sounded a bit over damped, a bit too tight, and a bit leaner than I would prefer. Instruments sounded made of the right materials, but reduced in weight. And the sound tended to be a bit on the dry, forward side. So I admired them, but couldn't love them. And my quest went on.

(I ended up, after Quad ESL 63/Gradient subwoofer, moving to Von Schwiekert VR4 Gen IIs…with stops at Shun Mook speakers, Waveform, Audio Physic virgo/Libra/Scorpio, Hales T-5s, Meadowlark, currently own some MBL 121s etc).

But way back at CES 2000, after hearing the Thiel CS6 speakers in a room or two (I'd heard and admired them in showrooms before) I happened upon the VAC amplification room, which also employed the CS6. I was about to move on when I realized I couldn't stop listening. I sat down and heard among the most beautiful reproduction I'd ever heard - this was Thiels…on TUBES! It had all the Thiel virtues I loved, the precision, truth, density of sound, tonal believability, dynamics etc, but it was no longer dry and tight, but had a liquidity and more of the body I found to be more believable and gorgeous. It was an epiphany: I'd always dismissed the combination as a no-go zone due to the Thiel rep for requiring beefy solid state amplification.

Not too long after that I got hold of a pair of CS6s to try with my Conrad Johnson Premier 12 140W/side amps.
And it was fantastic! I got essentially the same type of gorgeous mix of characteristics as I'd heard at CES. It wasn't just me: audio pals declared it the best sound they'd ever heard in my room. (My room is on the small side, 13' by 15,' but it's odd dimensions and large room opening has allowed all the large floor standing speakers to work well in the room, and I don't listen loud at all).

But, for various room aesthetic and ergonomic reasons, and because I was changing the room to home theatre, I couldn't keep the CS6s.

But now, after many years of using various other brands, I've got the hankering for Thiel again. I can't get out of my mind the characteristics they brought that I haven't quite found elsewhere.

And this led me to look into the "newer" CS3.7. I became excited about owning a Thiel speaker that could even surpass what I heard with the CS6, and which was also substantially smaller and lighter (important for how I will integrate this speaker into my room). The idea of owning the culmination of Jim Thiel's engineering efforts is very compelling.

But I realized I wanted the Thiels too late, only a month ago, just missing the boat after they'd been discontinued, and all the stocks dumped and snapped up.

So I have to appeal to those here with experience of these new Thiel models to help me out. I like a clean midrange, but I don't want sterile, nor do I want a speaker that will cause ear fatigue in the high frequencies (I have sensitive ears). And I guess the benchmark with which I'm most familiar is the CS6. Would you consider either the CS6 (or choose the 3.6, or CS7.2) to have a smoother, or warmer midrange relative to the newer 2.7 and 3.7 models?

Me sense in reading reviews is that the newer 2.7 and 3.7 have a "smoother" midrange insofar as being even lower in distortion than past Thiel speakers, but they could also sound brighter, being more extended in the highs (and the Thiel CS6 as I remember, was sometimes thought to be a bit lacking in the upper high frequency airiness, which perhaps even contributed to my ear comfort with that model?).

I'm hoping to strike magic again, pairing the 3.7 with my CJ Premier amps. As far as I can tell from the Stereophile measurements, the 3.7s don't look any harder to drive (re my CJ amps) than the CS6, or the killer loads of my MBL, Hales speakers etc.

I'm also possibly interested in pairing VAC with the Thiels - I see some Renaissance 70/70s on sale sometimes - given the magic I'd heard at CES with that amp and the Thiels. (And Thiel's own blog reported that amp did some magic with the 3.7).

Finally, since there are no 3.7s available (used or otherwise that I can find) at this time, I may pick up a second-hand pair of 2.7s. My sense is that I would grab them to tide me over until some 3.7s showed up, though perhaps I'd like them enough to stick with the 2.7. And on that note, for anyone who has heard the 2.7 and 3.7, is the midrange any more "full" or rich on the bigger speakers?

Any words of wisdom or experience on these matters will be gratefully received.

(And, may as well ask: does anyone have a pair of 3.7s for sale? :-) )

Thanks,

Prof
prof
prof OP
3,474 posts
 
Jafant,

At the moment one of my interconnects are from Analysis Plus interconnects. (Though I've had varieties, including high end Nordost and others).

Again, all this is pretty much "Of convenience" for me when I add and subtract gear from my system, since I have access to these cables.

While I certainly appreciate the sentiment of advice about tuning the system via cabling, as a long time audiophile - I've been a previous contributor to on on-line audio review site, and have numerous friends in the audio and audio-reviewer community - I've come to different conclusions about audio cables. I've had varieties of expensive, highly rated cabling in my system, and I continue to regularly experience friends and audio reviewer's systems as we switch high end cables (top end Nordost, Crystal cabling, costing more than a car etc).
And I've exploited this situation over the years to do my own blind testing comparisons, which...well...has helped save me quite a bit of money. ;-)

I guess one way to put it is this: The friend who I'd previously mentioned has lots of high end gear flowing through his house, his system always has some version of high end cabling, and he recently just re-cabled with around $45,000 JUST ON THE CABLES.
The Thiel 3.7s I just purchased cost me around 1/7th of what just those cables cost! And I use mostly low-end/lower cost cabling.

Yet when my pal dropped over to hear my new Thiels, he was like "holy shit!" He found the sound spooky-real sometimes, and he was hugely impressed with the sound.

So I'm comfortable in my conclusions that my funds are best allocated to other parts of the audio system, vs spending substantial money on high end cables.

I respect anyone else's decision to spend their funds as they wish :-)

Cheers, and thanks for your comments.

prof OP
3,474 posts
 
Well I've certainly been loving my Thiel 3.7s.

But I have a question: What happened to all the Thiel 3.7s?

When I was originally posting, I was agonizing over whether to buy a pair of 3.7s that were for sale. There were quite a number available, on audiogon, ebay etc, but not one in quite the finish I wanted. But I grabbed a nice looking cherry-stained pair and...boy I'm glad I did. From my off-on perusing of the Thiel market, it's like right after I bought my pair last spring, the rest of them quickly disappeared off the market! I very rarely see any 3.7s (or 2.7s) come up for sale anywhere now, and when they do the prices are well HIGHER than when I was buying.

What happened?
jafant's avatar
jafant
19,742 posts
 

Prof,


Much Thanks! for the update! I was hoping that you would return to this

thread and tell me how much you are enjoying the CS 3.7 speakers.

Do not forget my suggestions on cabling, as most audiophiles, choose to cheap out on this important as pect of system building!

As for your question, there are plenty of CS 3.7 models out there. Dealers/retailers are sitting on them in their showrooms and such. Now that the end of the year is approaching, I look forward to the "year-end" closeout of gear and such. Keep me posted & Happy Listening!

prof OP
3,474 posts
 

Thanks jafant.

Whether they still exist at Dealerships, I still find it odd that on-line second hand sales seemed to suddenly drop off a cliff, relatively speaking. 
niodari's avatar
niodari
301 posts
 

It was interesting to follow these conversations and good that you have achieved what you wished. By the way, since I am using Thiel CS6 since a few months or so, it would be indeed interesting your overall point of view CS3.7 vs CS6. I have auditioned just once 3.7 and my impression was that it had a good middle and high ranges, but the lack of lower frequencies and that of a deep bass was more or less evident. Then it seemed to me that CS3.6 which I am using already many years has better low frequencies. I have settled them with Manley Stingray tube amp which I am enjoying already for more than 15 years. Just for curiosity, I have compared it with a number of more and much more expensive amps and I like how stingray sounds more. 50 watts in push-pull were enough to drive CS3.6 and also it drives CS6 without any problem. Some weeks ago I have connected CS6 to a more expensive McIntosh MA5200 solid state amp which I am currently using. Base sounds a bit deeper compared to Stingray, and perhaps voice sounds even more natural, I am not yet sure about the rest of the instruments (this McIntosh, unlike some other solid state amps, has a non-bright natural sound).

I was waiting for almost one year for the coaxes of CS6 which I have sent to Thiel. They were successfully rebuilt. After some break-in hours it became clear for me that not only low range but also mid and high ranges of CS6 have much more definition and dynamics. So it was a right thing to replace in my living room system CS3.6 with CS6, indeed, the difference in notable. The overall sound is more natural and real (although I could say the same thing about CS6s before).        

I have moved CS3.6 to my studio with a moderate Arcam A90 amp which is a solid state but with a very good in my opinion definition and a warm (tube) sound. I was using a pair of Thiel MCS1 together with a Thiel smart sub with that amp. Now all five speakers sound all together in my studio (but its not a home cinema setting).  It was a good idea to put them together as they naturally complement each other. The lack of mid and mid-high frequencies in CS3.6 are very well compensated by MCS1 mid drives and tweeter. The overall sound is close to full.  I am not sure although if these 5 speakers together would surpass CS6 if connected to Stingray or McIntosh, I did not try yet (may be I will do this some day).

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