Vintage DD turntables. Are we living dangerously?

Richard,
I have owned the Final for 25 years and in that time you have heard it once. I clearly recall your comment at the time which was "amazing".

During that 25 year period I have also had the pleasure of owning many other turntables - various Sotas including Star Vacuum, Well Tempered, Garrard 401and 301 idlers, Pink Triangle, Oracle Delphi’s, Roksan and others. I have just sold my Platine Verdier. I have personally set up many tables including various Goldmunds, VPI’s, Gyrodecks, Aura’s, Mapleknolls, Micro Seikis and others too numerous to list.

I regularly have listening sessions with audiophiles/music lovers, some of whom own Kenwood L07D’s and SP10’s and have no reason to replace the Final. I recently hosted a listening session which included the owner of a Micro Seiki SX5000 loaded with Graham Phantom’s who fully concurs on the relative merits of the above mentioned decks.

As regards "dynamic speed stability", there is a reason your SP10 and Halcros Victor have servos and speed correction - the SP10 and Victor cannot hold speed without the servos running. If you turn the servos and error correction off, neither of these Direct Drive TT’s will run let alone maintain speed.

The previous owner of the Final, Warwick Mickell was an opera lover, played harpsichord & wrote for The Absolute Sound magazine; pitch stability was a key requirement when he set out to select the best possible turntable, cost no object, in Japan, at that time. Warwick benchmarked the Final against the Denon DP100 Direct Drive and many other turntables prior to purchase - it was no contest. 
  
I’m sure there are other great turntables such as those I mentioned in my previous post - the EMT 927, American Sound, Micro Seki’s etc - that can give great musical pleasure.

Dover.
I heard the Final enough times at Warwick's to get a fix on what it did well and what it did not so well. Hearing it at your place only served to confirm this.
re the amazing comment. Under the right circumstances I find my car stereo to be "amazing" . We adjust our expectations based on where we are.

Re speed stability, Your comment re DD TTs needing servos to work is immaterial. It is just a different technology that's all.

I am on record during a conversation with Lewm stating that I could not live with a standard SP10 MK3. (To my ears they have a high frequency jitter speed problem that is just plain irritating, which took me 15 years to tame.) I will now expand that statement to say that I have not heard any standard DD TT that I could live with. So perhaps Warwick and I are almost on the same page.

Could I live  with the Final? 
While I admire what it does well the, to me, obvious dynamic speed problems disqualify it from my bucket list.

As I said, we each make our choices based on our particular biases. I have no beef with anyone preferring a different TT to what I would choose. This diversity alone makes our hobby fascinating.

richardkrebs
I am on record during a conversation with Lewm stating that I could not live with a standard SP10 MK3. (To my ears they have a high frequency jitter speed problem that is just plain irritating, which took me 15 years to tame.) I will now expand that statement to say that I have not heard any standard DD TT that I could live with.

It would appear then that you agree with me now.
It is surprising that you could live with DD turntables for 20 years prior to "taming the jitter". With regards to "taming the jitter" - thats what the digital guys claim each time they release some new algorithms or technology. As I said to Lewm there is no evidence that your lead and glue mods to the SP10 reduce the number of error corrections per unit of time which is what he claimed. You may have slugged the sound but the error correction is still going on.
Servos and error corrections are not irrelevant as you claim - these are micro adjustments to the speed of the motor and platter. This is why you hear "jitter" with all direct drive turntables ( other than yours of course ).

Dover, It has long been my observation that your major goal in participating in this discussion is to "prove" by the force of insistence that your particular Final Audio turntable is "the best".  Secondary goals are to prove that the finest direct drive turntables are inferior to the finest, most expensive belt drive turntables.  You've made these points over and over again, never with any sort of "science", except for the implication that what you hear and report is to be taken as gospel.  So, I hardly think it behooves you to come down on Richard for not offering "proof".  Actually, Bill Thalmann may have made some measurements of Krebs-modded SP10s that do support the claims.  I will inquire.

It is irrelevant to me that you place no value in my subjective judgement, so we are even, so far as that is concerned. What I wrote about the Krebs mod was meant for persons who use SP10s.  Direct drive has its issues, and so does belt drive.  Apparently you prefer belt creep and speed instability to issues related to servo mechanisms.  That's fine with me.  And by the way, if your Final Audio has a motor controller drive system of some kind, the chances are that it too has an error-sensing mechanism which has the potential to produce an effect not unlike that of a DD servo.  The only difference in the case of a belt drive is that the corrections are delivered via pulling on a compliant belt, which has its own pros and cons. Playing LPs is an exercise in inexactitude; each of us must find his own set of likes and dislikes which in the end must be based on listening.  What I don't understand is why you hang around here, if the subject of this thread is so odious to you.

Lewm -
Life is a constant learning exercise, that is why I read and participate in these forums. I regularly listen to and enjoy music on all types of drive ( other than digital ). You are quite wrong on the Final - I would be disappointed if there were not a better turntable out there - because I enjoy the constant upgrade process and the joy of rediscovering old records in a new light when one accomplishes gains in the playback system. I do not claim it is the best, I simply haven’t heard anything better yet. There are many TT’s I still have not heard. The comments I have made in this thread are only related to TT’s that I have heard in depth. Ditto with Rauls MM thread - I still prefer MC’s but have gleaned much knowledge and tried a few new MM’s in the past year or two. I continue to listen to other turntables in my system - it’s enjoyable and usually learn something.
A few corrections on the Final - it has a very powerful AC motor, no active speed correction. Speed is controlled by precision oscillators regenerating sine and cosine waves and a power amplifier to drive the motor. It has separate controllers for 33 & 45 and I can set the speed between 0 & 85 rpm on each as well as vary the level of torque applied. Speed relies on inertia (26kg platter), powerful motor and AC phase locking. As regards belt creep the Final uses silk thread - the stretch is negligible compared with rubber belts, otherwise I agree with your comments on belt drives (rubber) and so far the only decks that have approached the Final have been idlers.
Speed and power wise, the most astonishing TT I have heard in the past couple of years was a Denon RP52 Idler. The owner, a DJ, demonstrated side by side with a Technics DD in the same system that you could could start and stop the Denon with a low compliance MC sitting in the groove and hear virtually no slurring of the music on start up. Doing the same test on the Technics DD resulted in much slower start up such that you could hear the music coming up to speed. I wish I had made a video of it. I suspect the EMT 927 would be in that league - huge torque coupled with a 50lb flywheel.
The Technics DD motor used for driving lathes, the SP20, was designed specifically to operate in conjunction with the Neumann 60lb flywheel and has significantly more torque and poles than the SP10mk3 - this would be an interesting DD platform to listen to.