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Help with picking the right phono pre for the rest of my system please!

I'll try to make this short yet detailed enough for folks to weigh in properly.  This group is honestly the most knowledgeable and helpful I've found anywhere, so I really wanted to get this out there and see what people here recommend before I spend more cash!

I need advice on a phono pre, please!  The local shop (I bought local brick/mortar as I am trying to support that whenever I can) is super knowledgeable about analog so I trust their judgement, but my choices on phono pre's from them is quite limited, in particular with Audio Research in a model cross-over point with the PH6 and PH8 discontinued, which they no longer have in stock for me to demo.

Here's what I currently have in the rest of my system:

I just ordered a VPI Signature (Black Friday) deal which comes with the 3D printed tone arm and the SDS speed control module.  It's my very first turntable and foray into vinyl, and I didn't want to start small as I knew I would just want something better if I started with a $1000 table.  My research and a few buddies tell me this VPI is a very good start and could theoretically be my last turntable/tone arm. 

As a cart, the shop recommended and has on hand (important so I can listen to vinyl soon!) a Dynavector 20x2 MEDIUM, which I guess is not very common, and kind of sits in a weird spot given it's output.  But the recommendations of it being very musical seem to be a good place for me to start at $1k (and upgrade from later if desired).  I heard the combo at the shop and it sounded fantastic, albeit going through a higher-end Audio Research pre-/phono stage, and with my PrimaLuna HP amp driving top-end B&W 803 diamonds.

In my system I'm feeding a recently purchased (same) PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP integrated, which I've upgraded all tubes on to KT120s and upgraded 12AU7s.  It is absolutely stunning driving my Zu Soul Supremes.  I mean the best my system has ever sounded.  To add to my love of the amp, it has a built-in headphone amp running off the same tube stages that is driving my Audeze LCD-3s unbelievably well--so well that I'm going to sell my Auralic Taurus Mk II headphone amp.  Because I listen to headphones quite a bit, and I'm so happy with my speaker output to boot, I want to make sure I put the right investment into the vinyl side up front.

My digital front end is an Aurender N100 feeding a Schiit Yggy, which I can't recommend enough.  That combo smokes everything else I've had in my system, and there have been some decent to great DACs over the years.  The combination is causing me to spend more on my analog front end because I know if the vinyl doesn't beat it regularly, I will spin less vinyl in lieu of the more convenient and excellent sounding digital.

So, here's what I have as options for immediate demo and purchase from a phono pre perspective:
  • used Audio Research PH3SE for $1250, which has already been input matched (soldered!) to the cartridge I'm buying--I'm expecting to like it as I've heard it kind of gives a "vintage" sound which I think might sound great with my Zu's, but obviously worried it might not be enough performance in relative terms
  • SimAudio Moon 5.3 with external power supply (guessing around $2K)--I'm expecting it to be great given the reviews, but I have found SimAudio stuff a little dry and down-the-middle for my tastes in the past (I ran an I7 integrated for a couple of years and never totally fell in love with it in spite of it's tremendous performance)
  • crap, that's it!
I can get a Audio Research PH6 for about $2500 new, and a PH8 for about $4500, but I won't be able to demo them.  A PH7 can be had used for $3200.  Between those I feel like the PH7/PH8 would be a better step up from something like the PH3SE.  Don't know how those would do against the SimAudio 5.3.

As I think ahead to a lower output MC cartridge in the next couple of years, I'm nervous about getting too invested in a phono pre that doesn't have enough gain for the rest of my system and a low output MC cart.  As I understand it, the PH line may limit me there and require I get a really expensive preamp with more gain at that point?

So, what other phono pre's should I consider in the $2-5K range (preferably used prices for a better value) that won't be a gamble with my system synergy, and best case also help future proof me?

BTW, I love musical and big sound stage with tonal midrange bloom over detail and "hi-fi" sound and/or insane bass.  I would definitely say I'm a "tube guy" over SS in amps, but I've also read that maybe a solid state phono pre is better match with a tube amp to maximize the benefit of great vinyl.

Help please!

Thank you, Jay




parsons
parsons's avatar
parsons OP
149 posts
 
I cut/paste some notes from some of the other longer threads on the topic...for anyone that's interested, here are the notes, and apologies for the poor organization and formatting (these are in somewhat chronological order with oldest first, following the longer thread on this forum and I added the greater-than signs to indicate the posters' preferences):

  • ASR Basis Exclusive (battery) > Audia Flight
  • Audio Flight > ASR Basis > Pass Xono (opposite the first)
  • Doshi Alaap Mk II > Essential 3160 > Essential 3150
  • ESE Nibiru—super silent
  • Einstein phonostage is silly good and shows up on Audiogon used for a really low price. It comes with a varirty of loading resistors and can be improved by using HiFi Tuning fuses and the right power cord. > EAR 324
  • whest PS.30RDT
  • Tron Seven Reference is my holy grail > FM 222 mk3, CAT Legend, Lamm, EAR 324P, Einstein, AQVOX, Herron, Karan, Cary, Artemis; TRON Seven lots of votes … built to order
  • "THE GRAIL" by Van Den Hul.
  • Whest PS.30RDT Special Edition. > Audio Research PH7   killed it! No contest.
  • Herron VTPH-2 with vintage Telefunken tubes…multiple votes
  • Accuphase C-27 > Aesthetix IO-Sig
  • ARC ref2 > AMR PH-77  Only thing lacking for me was a slight tonal weight in the bass - however the unit I listened to at home only had 150-200 hours on it. supposed to get more weight at 300-400 hours.
  • Air tight was more natural and 3d sounding > The AMR
  • Klyne was excellent back then but now has easily surpassed by the much cheaper Einstein
  • Whest Audio MC REF V MK4 > Allnic H-3000  ALLIC H3000 and new H3000V even better  Adjustable for all cartridges MM or MC.
  • Ypsilon step up transformer and phono stage  > Einstein (in another class) > hotrodded Vendetta SCP2T and the Blowtorch;  Ypsilon is the best I've heard of the 25 or 30 I've had through. Forces you to a transformer though. Choise of that is a whole additional peeing contest (hilarious comment)
  • ASR Mini Basis Exclusive > PS Audio GCPH  night & day so much better that I bought one.
  • Manley Steelhead > EAR, Tom Evans, Conrad Johnson Another vote for the steelhead, vastly improved by installation of a pair of siements CCa 6922 tubes, It creams everything else I have tried > an early Sim stage, a VAT BK 10 and a joule lap 150
  • PS Audio GCPH > Manley Steelhead
  • Experience Music Kahn LCR phono stage
  • BMC MCCI > ASR mini Exclusive (runner up on my list) > PS Audio, the Audio Analogue Aria (junk for MC carts) and the RCM;  Moreover you need a cart with low internal impedance. For example my Denon DL103 with an impedance of 40 Ohms was a disaster. The ZYX at 8 Ohms really sings.
  • Musical Surroundings Nova Phonomena. Unbelievable for the price. > EAR834p with premium Amperex Bugle Boys.
  • ESE Lab Nibiru v3.0
  • Pass XP-25, XP-15 or Xono
  • Bellari130  — Is there a better buy in hifi?
  • Tom Evans MASTERGROOVE and the Allnic H3000V— The mastergroove is the most accurate, neutral, distortion free phono I have ever witnessed but I use and prefer the H3000V
  • Ypsilon, Like the Mastergroove and Allnic, in a different league to most mentioned > The Whests, rhea, steelhead, asr, art audio etc
  • The Einstein Turntable's Choice has been all I had expected and more. It is the only piece I have that is solid state, but the sound and construction is superb. AND, at only $5,500 new for single-ended, it is pretty competitively priced. 68 db fixed works extremely well with MCs that are in the .24 to .32 mv output
  • Audio Research REF PH2SE > Night and day difference from my previous best, the Aesthetix Rhea.
  • NVO PSA-One — Jeff Day has said it's the best he has ever heard in his own Blog;  a guy somewhere on these forums that had some very highly regarded phono units like the ypsilon and zanden and sold them for the NVO, do a search but it was a year or so ago. The importer will tell you of another guy who sells hi-end gear that had the ypsilon and also thought the NVO was better in most regards, not a small feat!
  • Ayre P5xe-mp phono preamp
  • NVO SPA-II Special Edition
  • AMR PH77 with Bendix Red Bank 6900 > iFi iPhono, but when really run in the iFi sitting on the right vibrational isolation can be stunning and I mean "keep up with my former Graaf GM70 (which had a $1K worth of Amperex/Mullard/Siemens tubes installed)
  • Naim Superline w/ Supercap PSU > Allnic H3000, Avid Audio Pulsare II, 47 Labs phonocube, Shindo Masseto (Internal phono stage), Einstein Turntable's choice
  • Audio Research SP20: $9000 is a full-function, line-plus-phono preamp
  • Audio Research PH-8. Prior phono stages were ARC PH-5 and PH-7se. The PH-8 Makes the other's sound broken.
  • TRON Convergence phone stage at USD 1.5k GBP 1k is unbelievably good at the money - nearly as good as my USD 7k (£4.5k) TRON Seven Reference
  • B.M.C. MCCI is at least second best, with only the Ypsilon perhaps better.


almarg's avatar
almarg
9,670 posts
 
As you realize, the shop’s recommendation of the medium output (1 mv) version of the 20x2 will significantly constrain your choice of a phono stage. I would urge patience, to the extent of resisting the urge to go with what the dealer happens to have on hand, and perhaps letting them order the low output or high output version of that cartridge. (And between those two my instinct would be to go with the low output version).

Also, the fairly standard gain choices of 40 and 60 db provided by the SimAudio LP5.3 would, on at least some recordings, probably make it unsuitable for use with a 1 mv cartridge in conjunction with the 360 mv sensitivity of your amp. And I likewise suspect that the ~58 db gains of the ARC PH 6, 7, and 8 would be too high for use with that cartridge, again considering the sensitivity of your amp. Also, given your stated desire for future-proofing I would be hesitant to go with any of the ARC phono stages, due to the single fixed gain they provide.

So where does that leave you? As you apparently have already seen in researching past threads, if you want a phono stage providing the flexibility to support both low output and high output cartridges (but perhaps not a 1 mv cartridge), and you want sonics that are arguably unexcelled in its price class, and that would be a perfect match for your integrated amp in terms of impedance compatibility and with respect to being limited to single-ended interconnections, and you want to buy from a designer/manufacturer who is a treasure to deal with, and you are willing to wait perhaps 2 weeks for delivery, I would suggest that you consider the lower gain version of the Herron VTPH-2 ($3650). And for that matter it may be worthwhile giving Keith Herron a call and seeing what he has to say about the suitability of using that phono stage with a 1 mv cartridge. You can be assured of getting an unbiased and very knowledgeable answer.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

pbnaudio's avatar
pbnaudio
1,617 posts
 
You could of course consider the Liberty B2B-1 - can be configured for any gain you'd like, standard is 45/MM and 65/MC. Easily switchable by a internal jumper accessible through a hatch cover on top.   Suggesting that maybe leave the MC setting stock then goose up the MM setting to 52 db or so.   Should you decide to try out MM later on its easily revertible to the stock 45dB by changing a pair of internal resistors.


Theres plenty of press on this little gem

http://www.stereophile.com/content/liberty-audio-b2b-1-phono-preamplifier#X5ylEHUHwZ5fmIxD.97

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue52/liberty.htm


http://www.analogplanet.com/content/liberty-audio-b2b-1-phono-preamplifier-measurements#m2OZ0ExmHrCj...

http://www.libertyaudio.com/white-papers/b2b-1-phono-preamp


And yes I do make them

Good Listening

Peter
oilmanmojo
472 posts
 
Even though not on your list, i would add the RCM sensor II to the list. Fully adjustable gain and load to fit a variety of cartridges. I had been using a zyx artisan and needed a little more gain. 
swampwalker's avatar
swampwalker
5,138 posts
 
Based on head to head session:
Doshi Alaap>Manley Steelhead=ZYX Artisan>>Aesthetix Rhea. 
Not based on any electrical compatibility issues, but based on somewhat theoretical sound advantages, if you are going MC I would urge an LO MC.  All of the phono stages noted above can handle an LO MC w/o an outboard step-up.  Never heard the Herron but Al's suggestion is square to all I've read about that line.  I'd also suggest talking to Mehran at Sorasound regarding the right combo of cart and phono stage.  He's not a designer/builder but his customer service is outstanding and he has knowledge of a wide range of phono gear. 
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