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Recommended amp for Thiel 3.6 -- newbie

Hello all. As a newbie to this, I’ve read a number of the forum posts, and have gotten some wonderful information and education. And, as this particulary question, Thiel 3.6 recommended amps, was pretty old, thought I’d post my own specific questions. I know so little about this, I’m sure to make some idiotic mistakes, but I’ll learn.

I just purchased a set of the Thiel 3.6s, and then read that they’re significantly hungry for both power and quality components. Although my budget is not unlimited, I have no buyer’s regret, as these seem to be a wonderful speaker set to grow into, with advancing upgrades as time goes on.

My room is about 27’x40’x9’, rug floor, combined living room, dining room; with the entertainment center in the right half of that space. My listening area is about 14’ back, and I generally expect to listen at mostly low to moderate levels. I like accurate, but I don’t like loud. I confess the system I was looking at was Denon AVR-x7200, rated at 150wpc -- but even that is confusing to me: One place says 150wpc, another 260w. The specs seem to be high at 0.05% THD, but the boards seem to reflect that many aren’t a fan of the Japanese disclosures. On all the boards I’ve read, no one recommended that system, in favor of, say, Theta, McCormack, Adcom and others. And the crickets were pretty deafening.

My prime use is for music from those speakers; but I would love to plug in HT application as well, with ultimate 4k passthrough, Network Attached Storage, Internet Radio, and Airplay and/or AppleTV -- those are the things that led me to the Denon in the first place. And even though the boards were critically silent (only one reference, and a negative one at that), I wondered if it was simply because those threads were old.

So for now, I’m kind of looking at Theta -- almost certainly in the used market. I saw a Dreadnaught unit go off recently, so perhaps with enough patience a similar thing might come around again. And see also (currently) a Casablanca unit. --But this is confusing. The Casablanca seems to return some of the HT features that I’d like, and while I’d like to think this is a solution, read the term "pre-amp", which suggests to me that this alone would never be a solution to power those Thiels. Perhaps this AND Dreadnaught. Or something similar. Or something else. --And for that matter, might the Denon 7200 itself, if not an ideal system, be used as a "starter system" -- acceptable for now -- and then morphed in pre-amp type of deal later, using it's connective controls, with some sort of quality amp downstream?

Thanks much for the consideration to this question and long post.
donzi
newbee
4,767 posts
 
Donzi, I'm a bit late on this post so I'll try not to just repeat all of the good comments of others regarding the need for a high current power amp. But I would add that high power is not necessarily all that important unless you are actually going to listen to this at  high levels (you indicated that you don't do this). The difference between 50 amps and 200 amps is only 6db, not all that much.

I bought my Thiels when they first came out and consumer information  then was minimal. I went through a lot of high power amps but had no success until I bought a 50W Class A amp made by Threshold, the  SA3. Not only did it drive the Thiels adequately but is was very smooth and truly neutral tonally, not really emphasizing any part of the spectrum, well maybe a bit warm especially by todays standards. What made this important was that many of the amps I tried were not really smooth thru the upper mids and highs and the resulting sound was etched/harsh/bright. So if at all possible you should listen to any amp you might buy in your home with these speakers or you risk wasting your time and money.  On the subject of 'recommendations', I'd place more value on those from folks who have actually had these speakers in their own homes and went thru the set up drill. Generic recomendations don't mean much with Thiels. 

The Thiels you have, and most of the other Thiels as well, are fine speakers, but they all demand not only high quality matching amps but upstream components as well. Garbage in - garbage out. Really!

BTW, you could use your Denon as you suggest and replace it with a quality pre-amp when you get some funds. I replaced my pre-amp with a then SOTA tubed pre-amp (huge difference!). If such a possibility is on your horizon be sure that any amp you purchase has the high input impedance to match the often high(er) output impedance of tubed pre-amps.

Good luck with this adventure.
donzi OP
60 posts
 
Thanks all. So I’m focusing on a good, current or vintage two channel amp. (Used, lower price and I’ll take my chance on repair need.) There are several choices including the great ones you’ve all suggested here. Current focus for this purpose is perhaps Mark Levinson 23, or Bryston 4bst -- or one of the others. Now for the pre-amp question -- quality in! (I now get that.) But before I move off into the two-channel pre-world, like perhaps Casablanca, is there a solution such as this Marantz pre that would not overly color the signal in? (Or perhaps if it leaves the signal unmolested, this lesser version.) Or am I understanding the hard truth that this is going to crap up the system even though it’s not having an amping function?

And even so, tis, you spoke of the full quality two channel (end-to-end) system, with alternative, cheaper HT passthrough. Would that linked system above accomplish that? Or when you talk about pass through, is there a system that allows this to do so far more unmolested?

In all cases, is there any chance that a system such as that can be combined such that (with those features) it can be the "turn-on-and-control-all" system including the quality two-channel system? Or in all cases, am I going to be looking at a tradeoff choice of those features vs. quality? If so, I’m a little puzzled, tis, by what you’re suggesting in terms of integration, as it seemed to imply that there was a solution that would fit what I was looking for. In other words, I'm suspecting that if I ultimately want any HT, I might have to hit multiple on switches for multiple systems to get both quality AND HT. (Although I’m sure I have that pretty muddied up at this point.)

I did go listen to the Denon today, and INSTANTLY dropped it from consideration. Heard a lesser powered Marantz amp (which arguably is the same quality realm) but had nicer sound -- which then led me to the question of the possibility of using Marantz simply as a pre system, hoping to bring me even closer to a full picture, including quality. But again, outside of an expensive pre system, I understand I may not have an option.

In all cases, budget will probably have me piece a system together in steps, starting with two channel music, adding streaming audio and the like, and perhaps TV somehow, down the road.
donzi OP
60 posts
 
I've re-read these posts again several times. Thanks all. I'm getting a very good (well, better) understanding.

And tis49, I am focused on your solution as what I really need, and think I misunderstood it. 

I think your best setup would be to get an 2 channel integrated or pre/power that has HT pass through. Then add a lesser expensive a/v receiver for the HT capability.

By my post above this one, I was attempting to shoehorn the quality part into the HT part. But you're talking about a very different thing, right? Not the passing of signal from, say, Marantz pre-amp to quality amp; but the passing of HT ITSELF through a quality system -- thus combining them, but leaving the ultimate Thiel signal unmolested by bad quality, right? I can't imagine (or don't know) of any system that might pass through, say, into the Marantz. Can you give me an example or two? Thanks much.
tls49's avatar
tls49
1,351 posts
 
Right Donzi, and to use your words, you might say my suggestion sort of shoehorns the HT part into the quality part. This feature called HT pass through, HT bypass, or HT direct has been added to integrateds and preamps for the purpose to add HT to a 2 channel system without compromising the 2 channel quality. Here is a simple diagram showing how it’s done,

http://s894.photobucket.com/user/Trolley_bucket/media/XDA1_Schematics/XDA-1_wBypass.jpg.html

This is using a preamp (XDA-1) and a power amp. When using an integrated amp, a single box replaces those two. The front pre outs of the AVR connect to the HT bypass input on the preamp or integrated. When selected, the preamp or integrated volume control is bypassed and volume is controlled by the AVR. Also, depending on the capabilities of preamp or integrated, input from CD could be either digital or analog.

It’s like having 2 separate systems that just share the main amp and speakers.
donzi OP
60 posts
 
Thanks Tis,

That's sort of what I was guessing. I appreciate the clarity. In this setup, you're talking about a unit like this, right? Where channels one and two stand alone, and the occasional DVD use goes through for full set of speaker usage. But in that picture wouldn't most AVRs process the signal before such a unit, putting in their own flavor to channels one and two? Or is it a case that, yes they would, but for DVD, it doesn't matter? 
And if I may ask a completely subjective opinion, if I went through a unit such as this one (where I DIDN'T segregate the quality of signal, what percent of quality do you think I might lose for the pure music? 10% or more like 20-30% or more? (You see, I don't know the degree to which those kinds of units put in their own flavor on a passthrough.) If it's 5%, I might go with it; if it's 30% I wouldn't. Opinion?
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