Speakers that are very accurate sounding but don't produce an emotional connection.

Good orig. post, sunnyjim - not at all "out there," but as I see it indeed very relevant. 

+1 mac48025 and fliz; nice to read of shared sentiments, and thanks for provided link, fliz - bang on, I'd say. 

melbguy1 --

@fliz, the new Magico S5 Mk2 speakers use 2 x 10" bass drivers which handle the low, mid & upper bass crossing over to the midrange at about 200Hz. The new 10" bass drivers have massive magnets which help saturate the structure around the coil which prevents eddy currents forming, which in concert with the lighter and stiffer hybrid carbon Nano-tube/Nano-graphene cone material should reduce distortion & improve dynamics.

This sounds to be a very potent bass configuration, but in regards to the 2 x 10" woofers here used their chosen cross-over frequency (i.e.: 200Hz) sits in a rather sensitive area in the upper bass, and so would likely not have the desired effect - at least as advocated by author "W.A.J." to the article via supplied link - in regards to the equal importance of the lower mids (i.e.: ~250-500Hz) here mentioned. 

The excursion rate of the voice coil for the new 10" bass drivers is measured at 15 mm linear movement, twice as much as its predecessor, thus enabling plenty of air to be moved. The S5 Mk2 is also 1db more efficient than the old S5 (89db @4ohms), so it should have impressive bass.

Bodes well for impressive LF performance, something I'm sure my own speakers (w/15" drivers in folded horns) can only dream of. There's obviously a trade-off here; either have the dynamics, presence and physicality a horn-loaded 15" unit (cut off at ~500Hz) can present from the lower mids and down to ~50Hz, or have lots of it sacrificed for strong LF-performance further down in the 25Hz region or thereabouts from smaller non-horn-loaded units. A horn could do this as well (i.e.: extend to 25Hz), but would have to be seriously massive in size to do this.  That said 89dB is a far cry from 105dB sensitivity, and 15" horn-loaded drivers exsert very limited amounts of excursion which comes as a significant benefit in regards to their reproduction of the lower mids, also coupled with the high sensitivity and low distortion that follows. 

I got used to my speakers more than I think they're valuable. They just sound so right and no other speaker would actually please me or make me want to upgrade. I own them for over 10 years and changed one woofer because I liked them LOUD sometimes. 
As to emotional connection, I tend more to connect to performing artists that inspire me rather than to equipment or musical instruments in general. I've got back to practicing my accordion, but realized that it sounds more like train making a sharp turn almost on every note and on any reed and makes me stop practicing very soon, so looking for replacement or buddy who would borrow me a descent sounding piece for pleasure of practicing. Great sound of instrument means a lot regardless of emotional connection and so is with speaker. The better sound the longer hours you can enjoy.

phusis184 posts12-29-2015 11:54pm melbguy1 --

@fliz, the new Magico S5 Mk2 speakers use 2 x 10" bass drivers which handle the low, mid & upper bass crossing over to the midrange at about 200Hz. The new 10" bass drivers have massive magnets which help saturate the structure around the coil which prevents eddy currents forming, which in concert with the lighter and stiffer hybrid carbon Nano-tube/Nano-graphene cone material should reduce distortion & improve dynamics.

This sounds to be a very potent bass configuration, but in regards to the 2 x 10" woofers here used their chosen cross-over frequency (i.e.: 200Hz) sits in a rather sensitive area in the upper bass, and so would likely not have the desired effect - at least as advocated by author "W.A.J." to the article via supplied link - in regards to the equal importance of the lower mids (i.e.: ~250-500Hz) here mentioned.

Note: The estimate of 200Hz was based on the previous model. That spec has not been published yet for the Mk2. None the less, the subjective balance and objective measured performance of the original S5 suggest that Magico was successful in integrating the upper bass to lower mid frequencies. The new S5 Mk2’s bass drivers use more powerful magnets in an underhung motor system, together with a lighter and much stiffer cone. Thus the drivers should be up to task.

The excursion rate of the voice coil for the new 10" bass drivers is measured at 15 mm linear movement, twice as much as its predecessor, thus enabling plenty of air to be moved. The S5 Mk2 is also 1db more efficient than the old S5 (89db @4ohms), so it should have impressive bass.

Bodes well for impressive LF performance, something I’m sure my own speakers (w/15" drivers in folded horns) can only dream of. There’s obviously a trade-off here; either have the dynamics, presence and physicality a horn-loaded 15" unit (cut off at ~500Hz) can present from the lower mids and down to ~50Hz, or have lots of it sacrificed for strong LF-performance further down in the 25Hz region or thereabouts from smaller non-horn-loaded units. A horn could do this as well (i.e.: extend to 25Hz), but would have to be seriously massive in size to do this. That said 89dB is a far cry from 105dB sensitivity, and 15" horn-loaded drivers exsert very limited amounts of excursion which comes as a significant benefit in regards to their reproduction of the lower mids, also coupled with the high sensitivity and low distortion that follows.

I understand the theory of what you’re describing, and yes many hybrid horn speakers i’ve heard have a live presence to them. Mind you, there is a reason Magico don’t use paper cones, or doped paper cones. I can assure you the previous model S5’s have plenty of physical presence and impact. You wont hear a midbass hump as with many other speakers. The NRC said the S5 was the best measuring speaker they ever tested. Magico’s transparency and linearity can take some time to get used to, but once aquainted, is addictive.

Designing bass drivers with a large amount of linear movement is ok if they have enough flux density generated from the magnets and motor system & the cone material is light and stiff enough to move in perfect piston motion. The S5 Mk2’s bass units now use much larger magnets similar to the Q series & a lighter and stiffer cone, so there shouldn’t be any issues with distortion or lack of speed/dynamics. But as I mentioned, compared to a traditional horn-loaded speaker, this is the harder and more expensive route to take.

If I was a millionaire, carte blanche i’d buy the Magico Q7 Mk2 which are more sensitive (94db @4 ohms) & employs 2 x 12" bass drivers, 1 x 10" midbass coupler, a 6" midrange & 1.2" diamond-coated BE tweeter. Obviously with that amount of cone area, cabinet volume and efficiency there are fewer trade offs, hence being their cost-no-object model. But within my budget, i’m happy with the S5 Mk2 which has quite acceptable trade offs which none the less should still enable the speakers to portray life-like scale, impact & speed given optimal amplification.

In summary, every speaker has some trade offs. It’s just a matter of whether you’re happy with the strengths vs trade offs of a given loudspeaker & how that loudspeaker synergizes with your system and room according to your tastes and listening preferences.

I don't post much here on Agon, but being the owner of one of those speakers that have the reputation for being technically excellent but emotionally uninvolving (Magico S5s), the topic is of particular interest to me. :-)

I think Ivan's post comes closest to how I think about this.  I think there are about 5 different dimensions that affect one's emotional involvement in a 'speaker', and I use speaker in quotes because unless you listen to different speakers in the same exact room with the same exact setup, it's difficult to isolate the speaker's contribution to what you are hearing.  Anyway, I think the 5 different dimensions are (and I think many of the previous posts mention these, too):

1. The speaker itself.  It's design choices, it's components, it's build quality.
   
2. The upstream components.  All of them, not just the amps but the sources themselves as well as the cables.
   
3. The room.  Its size (volume), its dimensions, its acoustic treatments, etc.
   
4. The setup, listening position and speaker position, within the room and relative to one another.
   
5. And finally but definitely not least, the listener themselves.  How are ears are calibrated (listen to live un-amplified music alot?  rock concerts?  are you a musician?  intimate with your favorite dealer's demo room or a friend's listening room?) and I think to some extent, what we read in reviews and on forums formulates what we think is musical truth.  And when we hear that musical truth in some speaker or system, we respond emotionally to it.  

So like everything else in this crazy hobby of ours, it all depends...:-)

Great topic, Jim!

allen

Allen  thanks for the compliment.  The points listed are very relevant to our individual apprehension of sound and  the consistent enjoyment of music