Tonearm recommendation

Wrm0325

Any and all thoughts and opinions are of course much appreciated.

Wrm0325
I can offer you some of my findings with an FR64s but first let me say it sounds like you have a bunch of really nice records , a system you are happy with and are about to retire. Why not just enjoy the music. Based on the limited info I would say - stay put with what you have. Enjoy life and music. So you listen through headphones? I was never able to get the hang of headphones myself.

This may be of interest as you brought up resonances.
Lyra cartridge designer J. Carr. - he has professional biases.
As you own the Arche headshell you are familiar with Dertonearm. He has a well known bias toward FR6* series tonearms.

Here is the thread.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1243274438&openusid&zzJcarr&4&5#Jc....

And the part I found intriguing.

See May 27th 2009 7:31am and 10:55am posts between JCarr and Dertonearm.

Jonathan Carr
I agree that the FR-66S would be somewhat better than the SAEC, but truth be told, I’m not overly enamoured of the "S" family either (and I say this as the long-time owner of a 64S with Elevation Base and Arm Stabilizer). The stainless steel is great to look at, but less great to listen to, and when I run mine I prefer to keep a compression wrap around the tube.

Dertonearm - you might - if you haven’t already done so... - give your Titan i a test in your FR-64s. The combo gives astonishing good results - despite the less great mass/compliance combination.

Johnathan Carr
Yes, I’ve already done so with the Titan i. Likewise the Olympos. I agree that the results can be quite OK - as long as you wrap a damper strip around the armtube or take measures to dampen it better. Otherwise the "fx" or "fc" variants are far more friendly to use. By the time Ikeda did the IT-345 and IT-407, he had gained a much better awareness of resonance control as compared to his FR days.

So what do I take from this? if I was curious I would try wrapping your armtube. Give it a shot - does it make a difference?

******************************
My own experience is not with the 66 but the 64; and I have also owned a JMW 12 in the past like yourself. So I offer my findings.

Now we all know I hope, that this vinyl playing is a sum of the whole, and I will ask you how important is bass to you. The rest of my post goes into more detail on why I ask this. IMO -with vinyl the lesser design set up well, can outperform the better design, set up not as well. The better design should ultimately have more potential.

Better Design and Potential definition - well each audiophile’s view is different.

******************************

So during a past bout of Audiophilia.

I ran a TT with a Dynavector DV505 and FR64s - same cartridges MC and MM. I remember finding significant differences in Low Frequencies.

This was when running with a set of Quad 57’s in Room B, with and without sub. See my AudioGon virtual page for room descriptions.

The FR64s produced more low end grunt over the DV505. very noticeable with only the Quads running w/o sub - they are good to about 45hz. So in systems that are light in the bass - the FR64s tonearm can help - imo.

When the Quads were used with the sub I found I had to actually change the setting on the sub when switching between the DV505 and FR64.

Now the interesting part of the findings for me was when I inserted a 15 IPS Master tape dub; that extra bass the FR64 was producing, was not there with the tape playing in my own room. This led me to form my own opinion that the FR64 does produce some type of extra resonance which shows up in the (bass), which I am assuming is a LR resonance of the tonearm itself.

Now from the designer of the tonearm note the Owners manual cartridge mounting instructions.

The distance from the front of the headshell to the stylus tip should be adjusted so that it is 7mm.
If this cannot be achieved by sliding the spacer try attaching the cartridge in a different position (on the spacer) or turn the spacer around.
A difference of 1mm more or less will not present any practical problems.

This tells me that the tonearm designer was not shooting for ultimate accuracy in presentation ...
btw - My FR64s had what I thought was a great anti skating system .

Hope this helps. My two cents. Good luck in your quest and enjoy retirement.

It's great to see contributions from successful Industry Professionals like Ralph (Atmasphere) and Harry Weisfeld.
HW is always interesting...and might I add sometimes entertaining....but his thoughts on turntables and arms (which he has designed and sold for decades) are not to be ignored..🤓
Any plans on releasing this new 3D gimballed arm Harry?

I ran a TT with a Dynavector DV505 and FR64s - same cartridges MC and MM. I remember finding significant differences in Low Frequencies.

I too run a DV-507/II and FR-64s on the same turntable and identical armpods through the very same same system.
http://i.imgur.com/JEroaY8.jpg
And on dozens of comparisons (in real time)....I find no significant differences in the frequency response (from top to bottom) between the two...😎
The Dynavector is a monster of an arm (1.5Kg) and does not fare well mounted on sprung turntables or those with flimsy armboards. A massive separate armpod is ideal for this tonearm....and is recommended by Dynavector themselves.
I don't know whether you mounted both arms identically Chris....but if you did, perhaps there is a fault with one or both arms?

Regards

Dear ct0517: Your self experiences about needs no further explanations and as you said that FR ( worst in the 66 because its higher non damped mass. ) showed that LF resonance ( read: DISTORTIONS. ) and that’s was what you was more sensitive aware but that kind of distortions happen in all the frequency spectrum alongn its harmonics distortions in a non damped tonearm.

In can bring now another " fatal " experience through an agoner that I did not want it to post because in this thread are at least to gentlemans that because they feel not good enough builded a " superhero " ( that’s what ignorance can makes when we have not self arguments. ) that is that FR seller.

In this agoner experience this gentleman the in good faith audiophile not only bought the FR tonearm but it boughts a new cartridge and tonearm cable under that " superhero " advise to make in the audiophile system a test to prove that the FR tonearm makes dust the ET2 tonearm that the agoner owned in those times and not only that but this gentleman followed any single advise from the " superhero " to make the set up. Here it’s the final result posted by the ET2 owner who invested big dollars to made that test:


""""" First of all, I want to say thanks to Dertonarm for starting me on this journey and all of the help he gave me in setting up my arm. As some of you recall, I purchased a Fidelity Research FR64s, a NOS Orsonic headshell, and an AQ LeoPard tonearm cable. This was all mounted on a new armboard on my VPI TNT table. After I had removed the ET-2 from the TNT and while I was waiting for the new arm and all of the other parts to arrive, I went ahead and did some maintenance to the TNT. I removed the bearing assembly and took it to a machinist for inspection. He didn’t like the fact that there was .004 clearance between the spindle and bushing. He pressed out the old bushings, machined new ones, line bored them, and pressed them in. There is now .001 clearance between the spindle and the new bushings. The machinist also micro polished the spindle, cleaned all of the remaining parts, put in new oil, and declared it finished. Dertonarm was emphatic that I install the FR64s 231.5 mm from the spindle to the center of the bearing instead of 230mm as the manual recommends (as well as the template FR provide with the arm. The machinist made a tool from barstock that fits over the spindle of the TNT and has a hole drilled at the other end with the center at exactly 231.5mm. He machined a tramel point that fits in the hole so you can mark the armboard with the exact spot for the correct distance. This tool was used on my new armboard and the hole was precisely drilled for the FR64s. I used the Dennesen Soundtracker to set up the cartridge as recommended by Dertonarm and VTF was set using a digital scale. I have the SDS for my TNT and speed was checked and set using the KAB strobe. I am telling you all of this so that you understand that I went through great pains to install this arm correctly. The cartridge I used during this time was my almost new Benz Glider SL.

I found the FR64s much more difficult/time consuming to set up compared to other pivoted arms I have used over the years. Some of you may disagree, but this is my experience. Most pivoted arms, once you have the cartridge installed, you slide on the main counterweight, make sure the anti-skating is set to zero, move the counterweight until the arm floats level, set the counterweight scale to 0, and then turn it until you have the correct VTF and bingo-Jed’s a millionaire. Then you set your anti-skating for whatever makes your socks roll up and down, and your pretty much done. After that you just start dialing your cartridge alignment in with your favorite alignment jig and readjust your VTF. Not so with the FR64s. The FR64s has a main counterweight, a dynamic stabilizer weight, and an anti-skating weight that all must be installed. I am not going to go through all of the necessary steps to get this arm set up, but trust me, if you have never set up a FR64s, it is more difficult than your average pivoted arm that I am used to. Again thanks to Dertonarm for all of the help during this process and Syntax offered some help to me as well which I also appreciate.

Before I removed the ET-2 I broke out a NOS Maxell UD 35-180 tape (I love this tape by the way). I recorded a selection of songs (at 15 ips 2 track on my Otari MX-55)that would showcase the FR64s arm’s ability to boogie in the bass as well as track the many dynamic swings that many of these cuts have. I recorded the following songs:

Lyle Lovett-My baby don’t tolerate
Lucinda Williams-Righteously
Herb Alpert-Rotation (from the MoFi version)
Talking Heads-Burning down the house
Herbie Hancock-Rocket (from the 12" single)

After I had the FR64s installed for about a week and had it as tweaked out as I knew how to make it, I re-recorded the above selections in reverse order on the same tape. That way at least I had one cut that would play back to back.

Now some of you had sent me emails asking if I had any preliminary findings to share and I demurred. I never claimed to have the fastest ears in the west so I like to take my time and make sure I know what I am talking about so I don’t have to eat a plateful of crow later (which I have certainly done before). Well, the jury is in for me, and it is my opinion that the ET-2 is much the better arm. The only thing the ET-2 gives up to the FR64s is a bit of bass punch, but I don’t think the bass from the 64s sounds as natural as that from the ET-2. The bass from the 64s almost seems detached from the rest of the music if that makes any sense. There is a myth that linear tracking arms don’t have good bass or can’t reproduce the bottom octave at all. This is nonsense in my opinion. I can speak for the ET-2 and tell you confidently that it reproduce great bass............--.-..........-.-..

In closing, I know that the FR64s is not the most expensive pivoted arm in the world and some of you may sniff your upturned nose and say I should have used a "better" arm. I am really not going to listen to any of that drivel. I spent around $3K setting up this experiment and I know that the FR64s is considered a damn fine tonearm which is why I bought it. ..............

I reinstalled my ET-2 last night and I haven’t stopped grinning since. .....
I stayed up until way-late o’clock last night because I just didn’t want to stop listening to music. Over and out . """""


Chris, there is no doubt that a non damped or not well damped all metal lon tonearm can’t be a " DISTORTIONS GENERATOR ".

That some persons like it is only because they are not trained to discriminate about. That’s why the post answering you where that that LF resonance does not exist in his experiences with. So what is happening with that gentleman, easy: his ignorance level is way diferent from yours or the other agoner experience I posted here and diferent from my ignorance level.

Sad to say it but for me it's clear that wrm0325 can't discriminate about distortions.

Your ET is a champ and as I told you in your thread an icon in the tonearms history.

Regrads and enjoy tyhe music,
R.

Another example of Raul's inexhaustible supply of EGO.

You seem to have ALL the answers.

The rest of us should just go home.

For the record, I find my FR66s to be the easiest tonearm to set up that I have ever used. AAMOF, I don't see how it could be easier. Everything just snaps, STS, into place. My JMW-10 and Jelco arms were significantly different and more time consuming.

Isn't it funny ( actually, it's not  ) that Raul quotes one example of someone whose experience supports his mantra ( and this is nothing against ct0517 ) and he declares it the law of the land. Well Raul, if we were to take a poll on the way you call this issue, I'm going to guess the numbers would not be to your liking.

WHO CARES ?  We all judge things by what our ears tell us. The problem is, when our ears don't agree with yours you call us WRONG and you are automatically right.

You've made your point, you don't much care for the steel versions of the FR series of arms, so unless you wish to CONSTRUCTIVELY add some thoughts to my next paragraph., please stay away.

OK guys, I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. Very, very much appreciated. But the story goes on.

It appears my budget has been increased to the 10K area, so I'm sure this is going to murky the waters somewhat. But that budget increase opens up a whole new world, STS, of tonearms available to my use. The Durands, Reeds, and others come to mind. Since I'm getting old, and this will be my last analog purchase ( probably except maybe for a cartridge change ), I want to get it right.

So, given the increase in the ceiling of my budget, any new thoughts on whether to keep the FR66s or go with a modern arm w/ the budget topped at 10K ? Linear trackers, of course, would be considered, as long as they can be mounted on the Blackbird w/o difficulty. Also, the ultimate arbiter is the sound quality, not ease of set-up or changing cartridges or anything else. Just the sound quality of the arm and its ability to get out of the way for the cartridge to do it's thing, STS.

Again, many, many thanks, and enjoy the music.

Cheers,                         Crazy Bill