Is New Vinyl Exempt from Loudness Wars?

Hello, Mapman. But we’re not talking about resolution, at least on this particular thread, only dynamic range.  Myself, I don't see any correlation between dynamic range and resolution but I have heard opinions at variance with mine. As I just posted this morning even hi res downloads are not exempt from trigger happy audio engineers in terms of overly aggressive dynamic range compression. Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...

Agree.  Resolution and dynamic range are two different things and not necessarily correlated.  You can have lots of bits available for both but its still the recording engineers that get to determine how or if to use them or not.

while the cutting lathes are truly magnificent machines and properly maintained stand the test of time beautifully… The format itself was not made to reproduce the kind of loud and often distorted music we have today.

Vinyl is an analogue format and sounds great. But with that come some physical limitations. Digital formats like CD and MP3 can reproduce anything where as vinyl is more unforgiving.

What Physical Vinyl Limitations ?

Well the very nature of the cutting act itself by the person and the machine (cutter). The person doing the vinyl master cut needs to be careful when cutting vinyl. Extreme signals can damage the equipment and also put grooves in the vinyl that are too big, which will prevent 20 mins of music a side. Go over 20 mins results in smaller grooves which leads to distortion and other problems like tracking.

This is incorrect.

First and most important, we should all keep in mind that **all** recording gear is designed to record whatever is thrown at it- it does not have taste of its own and would have no idea if the recording is ;music we have today' or something older. The simple fact is that vinyl easily records 'the loud and often distorted music of today' with no worries. Ask me how I know.

Here is another fact I discovered after we set up our LP mastering operation: The mastering amplifiers typically have about 10X more power than the cutterhead could ever handle. This is so its impossible to overload the electronics. The cutterhead itself, which indeed fragile by comparison, can cut undistorted grooves that no cartridge/tone arm combo could ever hope to track. So with any music that can be recorded at all the cutterhead is in no danger whatsoever, unless the mastering engineer does something stupid (again, ask me how I know...). IOW, the limit to LP dynamic range is in **playback**, not record!

The simple fact of the matter is while the LP likely falls a few (and I mean just a few) db short of the dynamic range of Redbook, in practice that dynamic range of Redbook is never exploited (the same with MP3) due to the fact that the media has expectation to be used in a car. Since LP does not have this expectation, usually it will in practice have greater dynamic range in the grooves that you will see with any commercial digital recording.

Going over 20 minutes on a side really is not a problem and you see it all the time. But that is a good side length as it can accommodate any kind of music without dynamic compression or tracking problems. 

Ralph, again though even if production of uber dynamic lps need not have technical limitations, and teh makers are inclined to leverage the technology to the max (rather than make some compromises in the interest of managing cost and overhead usually involved in making a higher quality product), there is still the problem that very few people have the playback equipment needed to track it well much less not have the stylus jump the groove.   So it only makes sense to produce such a product at higher cost and profit margin since only a few will be able to benefit.  It has to be in teh business model of the label/brand so people who care know what to look for.

I thought it obscene  at first that Urban Outfitters in manhattan was selling $30+ records and cheap Crosley products to play them on.    If those records are REAL records, there will be some unhappy customers trying to play them.   Makes more sense for them NOT to be.   That way they will play on almost anything but sound Top Notch on nothing.   Least common denominator has to win.  Audiophiles beware.

Why the DR Dynamic Range numbers for vinyl are higher than CD.
One explanation. Taken from here.

http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Myths_(Vinyl)

Here are a couple parts. fwiw - I am finding this research less stressful, than trying to figure out why my financial investments are doing so poorly. Sort of therapeutic - temporarily...  

Effect of vinyl mastering on dynamic range

A related myth is that when vinyl has a higher dynamic range than CD, it means the audio was sourced from a different, more dynamic master, and that the difference in dynamics will be audible.
It is true that recordings on vinyl sometimes have a spikier waveform and a measurably higher dynamic range than their counterparts on CD, at least when the dynamic range is reported by crude "DR meter" tools that compare peak and RMS levels. The higher "DR value" could indeed be a result of entirely different master recordings being provided to the mastering engineers for each format, or different choices made by the engineers, as happens every time old music is remastered for a new release. But even when the same source master is used, the audio is normally further processed when mastering for the target format (be it CD or vinyl), and this often results in vinyl having a spikier waveform and higher DR measurement.

^^^^^
I asked about the software/tools used to determine the ratings in that DR database earlier. The above states "reported by crude "DR meter" tools that compare peak and RMS levels. Interesting... 

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There are two types of processing during vinyl mastering that can increase the DR measurements and waveform spikiness, thus reducing the RMS and increasing the basic DR measurement by perhaps several dB:

The audio is subjected to low-pass or all-pass filtering, which can result in broad peaks becoming slanted ramps. The amount and stereo separation of deep bass content is reduced for vinyl, to keep the stylus from being thrown out of the groove. It is quite possible that these changes are entirely inaudible, despite their effect on the waveform shape and DR measurement.

The dynamic range of the waveform is also affected by the vinyl playback system; different systems provide different frequency responses. Factors include cartridge, tonearm, preamp, and even the connecting cables. A vinyl rip with weak bass may well have a higher reported DR value than a rip of the same vinyl on equipment with a stronger bass response.

^^^^^^
The last paragraph in this section is of particular interest and points again to equipment level and attention to detail  (setup). 

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Some even believe that Vinyl will automatically yield a superior sound, despite the well known technical limitations and disadvantages compared to the CD.

The technical details behind this myth are as follows. The cutting heads used for creating the vinyl lacquer (or metal mother) are speaker-like electromechanical devices driven by an extremely powerful amplifier (several hundred watts). At extremely large/fast cutting head excursions, the cutting head coils may physically burn up, much like how a speaker's voice coils may be destroyed by an excessive current. Also, the diamond cutting head stylus may prematurely wear or break. This places important constraints on the maximum levels that can be recorded to a record.

^^^^
Points to the extra care needed with cutting vinyl. Another reference to the delicate cutting equipment and how if one is not careful, damage could result to it.  

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