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Tonearm recommendation

Hello all,
Recently procured a Feickert Blackbird w/ the Jelco 12 inch tonearm.
The table is really good, and its a keeper. The Jelco is also very good, but not as good as my Fidelity Research FR66s. So the Jelco will eventually hit Ebay, and the question remains do I keep the FR66s or sell that and buy something modern in the 5-6 K range. My only point of reference is my old JMW-10 on my Aries MK1, so I don't know how the FR66s would compare to a modern arm. So I'd like to rely on the collective knowledge and experience of this group for a recommendation.

Keep the FR66s, or go modern in the 5-6K range, say a Moerch DP8 or maybe an SME.

Any and all thoughts and opinions are of course much appreciated.

Cheers,      Crazy Bill
wrm0325
fleib
1,124 posts
 

Sorry Raul, You can't lump all types of vibrations into a pile and deal with them by damping. It doesn't work that way. Damping doe not kill vibrations, it mitigates the affects.  In this case fluid damping an arm pivot can reduce the amplitude of resonance by approx. 50% depending on compliance, mass etc. Damping does not stop the resonance, it redistributes it over a wider frequency range with a less severe peak.

Overdamp the pivot, and as the name implies it's too much, it impedes motion. That's why Stingreen and Crazy Bill experienced negative affects with overdamping. There are other ways to deal with vibration depending on type and situation.

The use of mass is a way to convert vibrations to heat. Consider Mosin's Saskia table. It has a 200 lb. plinth made of slate. Even though slate is good at transmitting vibrations the mass converts them to heat. Another way is to dissipate vibrations and convert to heat or direct them out of the table.  Some coupling should be rigid, not damped. Overdamp everything on a table and the sound turns to mush (opposite of live music).

Regards,

Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
13,101 posts
 
Dear fleib: Of course there are several ways to damp and oil damping is only one of them, I posted several ways to do it in several audio system links but I talked too ofdamping through self damped build materials and a blend of build materials. I talked too that we can’t just disappear overall distortions but that the target is to mantain it at minimum.
Some kind of damping helps to change the frequency range where those distortionas happens or to convert to other kind of energy or lowering its SPL, etc, etc. I did not said nothing against all these.

Twe oil used on unipivots is used because mainly because its natural unstability of that kind of design but not really to damp overall the tonearm ( the only unipivot I own that does not needs bearing oil is the Satin. ). I heard too what stringreen posted in my Audiocraft but insiste that’s not the damping ( every kind. ) I’m talking about.
The damping mechanism used in the Technics EPA-100 or in the MAX 237 or in the SME V are out of the tonearm bearing because are not unipivots. In non-unipivots designs oil/silicon kind of damping goes out side bearings.

A kind of damp is that the arm wand be tapered as the cartridge cantilevers or as the SAEC and I think the VPI using 2-3 metal parts ( in the arm wand. ) joined.

The important subject here is that does not matters which kind of damping is used because all the system audio links need it. A non damped TT, cartridge, speaker or tonearm is only a " distortions generator ".

As I said the target is to mantain at minimum any kind of distortion. Insist we can’t really " overdamp ".

Now, it’s not only: " hey I need to damp ". No, we have to know where to do it, how to do it and what use to make that damp.

Btw, you don’t answer that big: WHY and what you want to listen.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.


fleib
1,124 posts
 

The simple definition of damping is to reduce oscillation. If we use a broader definition as in physics, it would be to reduce or dissipate vibration.  I was making a distinction between different types of vibration control, but it does not matter. Critical damping is just enough to prevent vibration or enough to allow something to return to its rest position.  Overdamping is a state where vibration is prevented to the extent that a moving part is prevented from movement.

A fluid damped tonearm does not have to have the fluid located at the pivot, for the pivot to be damped. Attach a paddle to the base of an armtube and have it dipped in a fluid trough when tracking a record, and you're damping the pivot.  Overdamp the pivot and you're restricting arm movement. 

atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,849 posts
 
There are two kinds of damping used in tone arms. One is damping of the arm tube- in this case its impossible to overdamp it, except that there might be the issue of adding too much mass to the arm!

The other is to damp the **motion** of the arm. This is done with a damping trough or similar. In this case there is no question that the arm can be overdamped!

I'm just putting this out there in case there is confusion about what is meant by 'overdamping'. We need to be talking about the same things!

I like the Triplanar because its arm tube is well damped; independently of that it has a damping trough in case you want to damp its motion.
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rauliruegas
13,101 posts
 
Dear atmasphere: You was the person that in 2011-2012 posted that we can’t overdamp the TT/platter TT " and from your today post sure we can overdamp if we interfere with its natural movement.

Fleib posted almost he same but as fleib you are not a rookie and " stop " the movement of TT/cartridge or tonearm obviously means we are overdamping but we need damping even here because the LP excentricty, skating force and surface waves that both goes against the " free " cartridge ridding. I know that and every one understand that even if no one talks about,certainly that’s is not what I’m refering to. I know that you understand very well what I’m trying to explain against fleib that he understand it but only try to beats some one.

I owned perhaps the best head amp ever Classé NIL-3. A design with an external power supply that ony this even today could be the envy for many design amplifiers.

Well, the main unit has to metalic shielded boxes ( very heavy unit. ) and as always I wanted to tweak/"improve" so I opened both boxes but to my surprise all the circuit board was not only encapsulated on the metalic boxes nbut truly encapsulated with a silicon like treatment that permit no single " door " to touch any circuit board component/part. This silicon like ( covering everything. ) encapsulation was used as damping.

I remember my tube SA-5 unit where Elliot puts especial attention to damp the circuit board and in the latter top of the line SA-9 he took it at " extreme " that damping trying to " kill " some kind of distortions.

One way or the other almost all the people inside the audio industry/market/hobby are trying to damp their system or designs to achieve better music information lowering all kind of the distortions.

Don’t you?

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.


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