Jazz for aficionados

We had been going back and forth about Fusion and Wynton, so this unwashed brain thought, HEY, with the internet and youtube, we can hear them both, almost side by side, and then we can each say which we liked best. And why?

This is not a test, just fun. I thought others might want to weigh in. BTW, You expounded on all the faults of Wynton, but failed to enlighten us on the brilliance of Weather Report. Slight oversight I'm sure. I was hoping our OP and Acman3 and Learsfool would state their preferences. But, no guts no glory.

The first paragraph of your post falls under what the shrinks call 'Projection'. Unless you can provide some when, where and who, I expect a retraction.

***** why, at the end of the day, I would much rather listen to others (Louis, Warren Vache) playing that style of music:******

OK. I have no problem with your personal taste or preferences.

****I will not repeat everything that I tried to share before about the pointlessness of that kind of comparison. Nonetheless, some comments about Wynton:****

Well, how about some comments about Weather Report!!

***Wynton sounds fabulous; beautiful warm trumpet sound, nice rhythmic feel, and excellent command of the vocabulary of that kind of jazz. Notice I said "sounds"; that is key.*****

I agree with your description. Well, 'sound' is the reason for attending concerts. That's what people come to hear, the sounds.

*****Notice how little silence there is in his solo; he has to fill up very beat, and there is a sense that he doesn't know quite know to end his solo; when to stop (sound familiar? :-)*****

I have read a billion reviews in my day. From Stereo Review, All Music Guide, Penguim, Gramophone, Audio Critic, BBC Music, Jazz Times, Downbeat, Internet sites like Amazon and every thing else I can get my hands on, some now defunct. And I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER read where a player did not know how to end a solo. Maybe they blew a little long (coltrane) but this is a first!

And I wonder how many of the paying members of that audience left the hall saying, "he didn't seem to know how to end his solos" or "he didn't connect his dots very well"!! These things are important to YOU. The sound is important to most other people. And after all, it's HIS solo!

Several months ago, I was reading the reviews on Amazon of a piece of Music Composed by LvB, and played by Berlin / Karajan. One of his Symphonies I think.
Everyone ranting and raving. Five stars everywhere. The greatest thing since sliced bread.

EXCEPT, one reviewer. He said the recorded sound was great, the playing was great, BUT, "I am docking it one star, because I don't think Karajan really understands Beethoven"!!!! WTF!! I immediately looked at his name, thinking Furtwangler had arisen. Nope, just Joe Blow from Baltimore.

That is arrogance! Disagreeing with you, is not.

Cheers

Since I've expressed my opinion countless times, countless ways in regard to Mr. Wynton Marsalis; if anyone cares to know, they can go back to pages 9, 10, 11 and 12; I do believe I've expressed my thoughts as thoroughly as I could think them, and they haven't changed.

Enjoy the music.

Hello Rok and Frogman - I have been away from this board again for a few days, and just read your recent exchanges with great interest, especially since they concern one of my favorite jazz artists, Wynton. As a fellow professional musician, I agree with all of what Frogman says about Rok's attitude, etc. A long post I made on the subject (imploring someone who loves music so much to please learn more about it) a few weeks ago now was completely ignored, which was a very depressing experience for me. I just don't get how someone who is so passionate about music is so resistant to learning more about it. As Frogman says, Rok, the music will wash over you that much more, and your enjoyment of it will vastly increase if you take the time and effort to learn more about it.

However, on the subject of Wynton, while I must say right up front that Frogman has infinitely more authority on jazz than I - I do not pretend to have any knowledge/experience on the same level as he does, as he is truly an artist in both the classical and jazz worlds, and I am only in the classical world professionally - as a listener, I would still respectfully disagree with him on Wynton, and I would go so far as to say that I agree with Rok's comment that Wynton is doing more for jazz than anyone else right now, and it's not even close. I fully understand all of Frogman's "museum" comments (though I would argue that this is very important and necessary work), and I understand that you do not feel that he is as emotional as some other performers. There are many who agree with you on that. Frankly, this has always baffled me and many other fellow musicians, especially other brass players. There is certainly no question that he is a far better trumpet player than any other in the jazz world from a technical standpoint, but that is not really what we are talking about here, I hasten to add. We are talking about musical expression, and Wynton's musical expression is not always overt - it is often of a more subtle, introverted nature. For me this does not make it not as expressive - in fact, one could argue that it is more personal, in a way. It demands more focus and thought from the listener, and I do not consider this a bad thing. He is an experimenter, and not all of his experiments work. I happen to think his interpretations of standards are very relevant, and often as good or better than people before him, and I like much of his original experiments as well. My point, however, is not to argue with you, I know where you are coming from and respect your opinion, but to point out that the subject is arguable and is argued among musicians (your post reads like it implies otherwise). I liken him to Alfred Brendel in the classical piano world, another one of my personal favorites who nevertheless is very polarizing, and is often criticized in many of the same ways Wynton is. I might argue that Wynton is sort of the Richard Strauss of the jazz world, which I can't believe I just typed, but I'll let it stand. I think Frogman will know what I mean by it. I'm too tired, but...

The main reason I would argue that Wynton is doing more for jazz than anyone, though, has to do with his teaching ability, whatever our disagreement on his actual playing. I just caught an episode of that show where he is teaching some ARTS competition winners, and he is simply amazing at what he brings out of them, teaching them to listen to each other and play off each other, and give each other what is needed in the moment, never intruding his own opinions/style on them, but teaching them to be themselves, in the way only the best teachers know how to do - he was born to teach. It is guys like him that will keep jazz alive, in every sense of the word. I have very rarely seen something equally good in the classical world as far as a clinic in how to play and make music together with others, whatever you think of the actual ideas being explored at the time. It was a very inspiring program, and the brief clips from the concert were great. Brendel is the same way, by the way - an absolutely amazing and inspiring teacher. OK, I'll go to bed now. Sorry for the rambling late night randomness of some of this. Frogman is definitely a superior writer in these here forums. I'm out for now.

Learsfool, thank you for you comments. I completely agree with everything you have said, and I don't think my comments said otherwise. Remember we were not talking about what Wynton "does for jazz"; I made my feelings clear calling him a great embassador for it, and I certainly made them clear re his trumpet playing skills ("he sounds fabulous"). Although, I would still argue that he has not added much to the evolution of jazz trumpet playing; stylistically, and the opinion of the overwhelming majority of jazz trumpeters I know. The discussion was a simple one, and the comments just as: who would we prefer to listen to? And why? And I also made it clear that he is "definitely worth listening to". On wether he is one of the greatest jazz trumpet players that has ever lived; which (going back to the discussion) is, ultimately, what would make ME choose to pull out one of his records instead of others. If that is what you are saying, I would have to respectfully disagree. As a trumpet player, he is a phenom. And, btw, it is also the majority opinion within the Jazz trumpet playing circles that I know. Still, I think you would agree the subject of Wynton was not the big-picture being discussed, but finding "the good in any genre". As an interested individual, I would much rather have Rok be able to appreciate the folly in his comment that Stravinsky ("20th century classical") is not worthy compared to Mozart (I am paraphrasing) "PERIOD", than my views about Wynton. Thanks as always for the excellent comments and contributions.

A quick follow up to my comments re Wynton's jazz playing, albeit a very personal one subject to one's interpretation and usage of words: he often causes me to think (feel): WOW! Seldom, to say: AAH! (as in: aah! I get it, I hear what you're trying to say). However, when he speaks, and as Learsfool points out. and Rok has been saying, there is probably no better teacher. That does a great deal for the preservation of the art form, and to that extent I will concede, does a lot to promote the evolution of jazz. But, again, as a stylist, he is very derivative; unlike Miles, Shaw, Clifford, Morgan, and other greats. Those are the players that make me want to listen to their stories. But, man, can Wynton play the trumpet; amazing!