CARTRIDGE WOES?


4-6-16
I don’t know what to think anymore, I’m perplexed! So, shall we dance? I mean begin?
Dig deep fellas, this system maybe older than some individuals here on this site?

I bought a Lyra Kleos exactly a month ago and have put about 55+ hours on it.
I’ve used my rock collection, my classical collection and my jazz collection across the board for every type of sound. My LP collection is vast with over 6500 records, although I only used a few disks that I am very familiar with, originals and a few re-issues.
I played it on humid days, dry days, cold days and warm days.
After initial setup I enjoyed it and without extreme reserve, I determined that it was an excellent cartridge according to my life’s experience. I started in middle-class Hi-Fi in 1967.

When I compared both cartridges* head to head on identically equipped turntables with identical arms, I heard some very noticeable differences. I understand they should be somewhat different but, please not a lateral movement.
However in all fairness, I presumed it needed more time for its break-in period to work its way into my heart. I began to judge after 45 hours or so.

Earlier this week, I decided to re-set the Kleos up from scratch because I felt the competing ‘other’ cartridge on the other identical table/arm was sounding, well, by all rational sensitivities ‘better’.
Later this week I spent about six hours setting it up all over again from scratch, over and over again, gee, talk about ‘audio-nervosa’. Testing and re-testing with no change.
It took that long because I tried various VTA and VTF and bias settings, along with different platter mats, along with either 3 and 40 ohm settings on my SUT.
Not only were all of the above parameters repeatedly changed but, so was my mental mood and attitude. I tried it all on a full stomach, an empty stomach, good moods, bad moods. I tried it in the quiet of early morning and the peaceful solitude of late evenings.

In consideration of its cost at twice the going rate of the ‘other’* cartridge, I expected something like I was in heaven but, didn’t really get it. The other* cartridge seems to allow me any feelings and moods I may have to be elevated to a higher level of musical enjoyment, regardless of time of day, hour or personal mood.
Things re-considered were; VTF, VTA, azimuth, bias, Baerwald, Stevenson alignment and stylus warm-up time.

Equipment used: Pre-amp: Carver C-4000, with a S.A.E 1800 parametric EQ
                            Amps: double Phase Linear 700 Series II (rebuilt)
                            SUT: Denon AU-320
                            Tone arms: SME non-improved 3009
                            Cartridge leads: AT-6101
                            Tone arm cables: standard vintage SME type
                            Tables: two Technics SL-120mk1
                            Speakers: double stacked AR-LST
                            System cables: Straight-Wire Symphony

Surely, the equipment could be better or even updated, but screw that, my vintage stuff sounds great to me and those others fortunate to hear it!  In fact it qualifies giving my left testicle to have this system 45 years ago!

LPs used are in good to excellent and new condition, and all have been meticulously cleaned with a VPI 16.5
All equipment is carefully maintained and in excellent condition which I rate approx. 7.5+ to 8.5+.

The ‘other’ cartridge is a Lyra Delos with about 100 hours on it’s lovely self.

Although, I’ve been a vinyl user since I was a kid (‘60s) in the last century using a Shure M3D and M-55, and in the early seventies with Shure M91ED, Empire 999sex, Shure V15 Type 3, and in the early 2000’s a AT-150MLx and AT-440MLa, and Shure V15 Type IV with SAS stylus.
Cartridges used within the last 3 years have been Denon DL-304, DL-301II.

Before the arrival of the Lyras, I used a Benz-Micro Ace SL and a Ortofon Rondo Blue,
So, my listening tools haven’t been half bad and in terms of vintage quality are certainly capable in their price category.

If you can find it in your heart, does anyone have any input?
I ask because I’m ready to freak-out and ask for a ‘trade’ and hopefully get two new Lyra Delos in exchange for one slightly used Kleos in the deal. I know fat-chance. Is Jonathan C. a sympathetic and understanding person? ‘Come-on Johnny!’
This maybe wishful thinking but, I’m ready to flip-out just the same.

The Delos seems to have it all over the Kleos in my system. It, being more transparent to all instruments, holographic, precise, flowing and magical, with greater depth and more articulate bass slam and certainly soundstage depth. Compounded by almost surgically cutting highs. It's simply amazing across the board, I mean record.

I realize that system synergy is certainly a key factor here, but the rig sounded more than great with the Delos, why not with the Kleos? I don’t think any component in the ‘system’ is out-classed by using a Kleos. If, I were using an Atlas or Etna, then, I’d concede.
fm

P.S. Please don’t get me wrong, as I type here I’ve been listening to a 3 hour block of classical on the ‘London’ label and the Kleos sounds great, just not as great as the Delos can sound.
I have to give it to “Syntax” who I don’t personally know but, I think he had it correct with his comments.
It sure sounds that way.
No offense or insult to anyone!
frankmarsi
...for starters, sit down with a drink and relax.  Something is wrong here.  I would send the cartridge to Lyra for a quick evaluation.  If you have great confidence in your dealer...he could look at it, but I personally would have Lyra take a look.  It sounds like you know what you're doing regarding setup.  I had an Ortofon Windfield which didn't sound right to me....I sent it back to Ortofon who said it was internally wired wrong...they sent me a new cartridge that sounds fab.  ....anyway, you would start knowing that the cartridge is good.
Hi Frank: While you are very much in the minority, you are not the only person to say that they prefer the Delos over the Kleos.

The Delos is more about fun and exuberance, while the Kleos is more about gravity and refinement. It could be that in your system, the Delos (and its somewhat higher output) is a better match.

On the other hand, certain other dealers have told us that they prefer the sound of the Kleos over all of our other cartridges, so the subjective preference really seems to depend on the system and listener.

Nonetheless, if you suspect that your Kleos is underperforming, you are welcome to send it back to us (via the dealer that you purchased it from) so that we can check it over. This does not mean that you will like the sound of the "after" Kleos any better than the "before", but at least we can make sure that there is nothing amiss that is holding back performance.

When it comes to a trade-in of the type that you mentioned, regretfully I don"t have the authority to decide, as that is the domain of the dealer that you bought the cartridge from, and the distributor in your country. The best that we can do is to support your dealer and distributor in whatever they decide is the proper course of action.

kind regards, jonathan

PS. Could you try shutting down your system, unplugging every electrical connection (power as well as signal), and remaking all of the electrical connections? Oxides build up on the electrical connectors over time, and systems usually sound better if the electrical connections are remade once a month (cleaning then remaking would be better yet).
It sounds to me like you prefer the Delos over the Kleos. Price does not always assure your enjoyment with audio gear. Many times I have liked something that is less expensive. If you can return it then you should ! Seems like a no brainer in my neck of the woods!
Frank, I see that you are new here, so welcome!  And thanks for providing such a thorough and witty post.

I owned a Carver C-4000 for a few years, beginning ca. 1980.  Initially I was quite pleased with it, but as the rest of my system evolved and improved its lack of transparency and other sonic shortcomings became increasingly apparent.  Particularly when the sonic hologram function was in use, but also to a significant degree when it was deselected.  Eventually, around 1985, I inserted a friend's Mark Levinson ML-1 into my system (that being the philosophical antithesis of the C-4000, with its design providing very little in the way of features but implementation that was very uncompromising), and it immediately became apparent that the Carver had to go.  I purchased the ML-1 from the friend and used it for the majority of the next 25 years.

While the possibility that the Kleos may be under-performing for some reason can't be ruled out at this point, of course, my guess is simply that the sonics of the Delos happen to be more complementary than those of the Kleos to the colorations and relative lack of transparency of the Carver and/or the other components in the system.  With an additional contributing factor perhaps being that the components may no longer be performing as well as they once did. 

I hope you will receive these comments as being well-intended and hopefully constructive, which is how they are being offered.

Good luck.  Regards,
-- Al