CARTRIDGE WOES?

Frank, I see that you are new here, so welcome!  And thanks for providing such a thorough and witty post.

I owned a Carver C-4000 for a few years, beginning ca. 1980.  Initially I was quite pleased with it, but as the rest of my system evolved and improved its lack of transparency and other sonic shortcomings became increasingly apparent.  Particularly when the sonic hologram function was in use, but also to a significant degree when it was deselected.  Eventually, around 1985, I inserted a friend's Mark Levinson ML-1 into my system (that being the philosophical antithesis of the C-4000, with its design providing very little in the way of features but implementation that was very uncompromising), and it immediately became apparent that the Carver had to go.  I purchased the ML-1 from the friend and used it for the majority of the next 25 years.

While the possibility that the Kleos may be under-performing for some reason can't be ruled out at this point, of course, my guess is simply that the sonics of the Delos happen to be more complementary than those of the Kleos to the colorations and relative lack of transparency of the Carver and/or the other components in the system.  With an additional contributing factor perhaps being that the components may no longer be performing as well as they once did. 

I hope you will receive these comments as being well-intended and hopefully constructive, which is how they are being offered.

Good luck.  Regards,
-- Al
 

Al that's amazing I was just about to post that the equipment,  which is solid but perhaps a bit long in the tooth  may not have the resolution to really appreciate the Kleos or may just be more synergistic with the lower resolution more colorful Delos. I would say great minds but next to your engineering prowess mine is downright feeble ;). And frank welcome great first post and it was great of Jonathan Carr to helpfully chime in great to see such a responsive importer. Good luck and happy listening!

4-6-16

Wow! Just the replies I was hoping for from Jonathan and others who have many posts under their belts! Although, I will address Jonathan first as he is the actual designer of the unit.
Jonathan that is very kind of you to offer a return situation as you have, I may or may not take you up on that and I’ll explain in a moment.

Just finished a 6 hour marathon of classical music and lastly played an excellent late1970’s pressing of “The Firebird”, conducted by Meiji Ozawa on the Angel label all on the Kleos. It did a great job.
I forgot to mention, although not used in direct comparison with either the Delos or Kleos, I have for this past year also used a Ortofon Cadenza Blue. So, when I mention valued and personal opinion comparisons either by memory or by actual at the moment use, I have a pretty fair amount of recall. I have a certain amount of personal credence in my recall as I’ve been an avid Hi-Fi user since I was 18, I’m now 66 years young.

To your point Jonathan, I set this system up only three years ago after relocating from another residence. When I set it all back up again, I applied a coat of deoxit Dicol to every contact through-out the entire system with the supplied tiny brush. I never apply this liquid to the leads that come in contact with the cartridge for fear of the liquid wicking into the cartridge body. I also do so whenever I change from one head-shell to another into the arm’s contact points, but only a minor amount for fear of it becoming gunk.
I must also mention that with a vintage system such as mine, it is not wise to shut down these amps and restart them without at least two hours passing because there is no protection circuitry and the large ‘caps’ will send through a large surge, henceforth blowing anything in its path.

To “yogiboy’s” post, I’m in accordance about what you say, as I believe you are correct. Although I don’t believe the vendor would take it back in trade with over 55 hours on it and after one month. Also, I agree with your assessment regarding the ‘liking’ of one component over another regardless of cost.


To “stringreen’s” post, Jonathan has offered me a return for a check-out. I don’t think the situation is extreme as you mentioned about your Ortofon though.
However, the relaxing drink part sounds good, although one drink could lead to another thus, lessoning my objective hearing abilities. I’m a child of the late 1960’s, played in a few bands in that era and it’s easy to get right up there and enjoy myself, too much.

Now back to Jonathan.
I’m beginning to feel and think that perhaps it’s just me., I’ll explain.
The Delos happens to be the best cartridge I’ve ever owned at my age and I have been extremely impressed by it, while fearing nothing else will come close. Perhaps it’s the fear of change, I don’t know however, so I’ll back my statement with the fact that I’m totally happy with the Delos. Perhaps I simply spent my money needlessly?
Case in point: On the 180gm. re-issue of ‘“Depeche Mode’s” ‘Playing the Angels’, on the first cut on side one the intro opens with a loud and furious undefined almost horn like sound.
The Kleos reproduces it well with out distortion, but lacking the full ‘impact’ of the sound, whereas the Delos not only reproduces it well and equally without any distortion but, the Delos' portrayal almost scares the listener with it’s ‘huge-ness’ and overwhelming impact of sound.
 In my 4 or 5 different pressings of the ‘1812’ Overture, the Delos’ cannons come across with more realistic sound than the seemingly almost muted rendition done by the Kleos. Oh it's close but, no cigar.
In “Sade’s” ‘Promise’ album, both the original 1986 pressing and the current 180gm. re-issue, the Delos for me reigns supreme, the Kleos only approaches the music’s clarity, vibrancy, echo and heft effortlessly rendered by the Delos.

I’m reminded of my other cartridge travels in the last 12 years.
When I went from the AT-440MLa to the AT-150MLx, it seemed to be a lateral move. I say this because although the AT150 had many attributes similar to the AT440 , the overall presentation of the AT150 was seemingly more refined and perhaps a bit better controlled (maybe to much so), whereas the AT 440 was so much more exciting and thrilling. I was similarly for me by going from a DL-301II to a DL-304, the ladder being so refined it became boring and unexciting for me.
The 304 seemed so refined and in control, whereas the 301 was balls-to-the-wall exciting and to use Jonathan’s appropriate term, exhibited much more ‘exhuberance’. Perhaps this situation’s perception is at work here?

So, have I talked myself into a corner?

First off, I purchased the Kleos and Delos from a reputable British vendor.
Will they take it back or not is up for question.
Or, as you indicated Jonathan, will it come back with a clean bill of health and the fault lying in my inability to have better personal qualifications of judgement?
In the mean time I’’ll be without and if nothing is wrong, it’ll a waste of emotion and time. On the other hand if I don’t send it back to the vendor and manufacturer, and there might be something wrong, I won’t ever know and have to swallow regret.

I’ll guess I must simply spend more time with the Kleos and or relegate it to a particular type of music, and or quality of recording?

Jonathan, once again, thank you for your response. It’s been a privilege talking with you. My thanks to everyone who responded.

P.S. To “Al”’ and “jund”, thanks for your replies: I thought seriously of the point you both similarly make but, I’m not just yet ready for such a large expense of an upgrade as implied. I’m actually quite content with the flexibility and diversity that the C-4000 offers me as I still use the tape inputs for my A77 Revox and multiple phono inputs as I also run a TD-125 turntable. This high degree of flexibility is generally not offered in the present or even last 20 year’s offerings of newer pre-amps.
In terms of the sound quality afforded by more costly components, well that’s another story I can’t speak of just yet.
In essence I operate in the ‘vintage’ realm and I’m happy to do so. I understand that many newer speakers systems work well in the ‘near-field’ whereas my AR-LST speakers were designed for use in the ‘far-field’, as much vintage stuff is. My room is 12X26 and I sit 10+ feet away from the front wall were the speakers are.

In closing all opinions that I had received here today are qualified and correct and I appreciate everyone’s guidance and input.

I will be in contact when I’ve determined my next move. I will leave the door open to anyone else who has something to say about my situation.

I still feel the Delos is one heck of a performer nonetheless!!!
The Kleos is obviously a horse of a different color. For me very close but, the Delos is my current favorite.
I have considered the Clearaudio Stradivari and Concerto for future purchase but, I don’t know if they would out do the Delos? Does anyone have an opinion?
In closing, yes I agree, perhaps a better and more costly front-end would be my answer, but I'm planning to stay put until I'm motivated to move on.
If the ship goes down, I’m grabbing the Delos.
Sincerely, Frank Marsi

Frank: I too am a huge fan of the Delos, I have two, one for back up.

Just one simple question that I wasn't quite sure you answered previously: Did you try both cartridges on both tables/arms in the unlikely but possible chance that one table/arm combination favors either cartridge over the other?

Also, your phono stage may work optimally with the Delos over the Kleos.

Steve

If you hear what I would hear I would very much prefer the Delos too. The most important thing to be conveyed are emotions, and it appears that Delos, at least in your system, does it much better. I heard praises for Delos outside Audiogon from people with totally different tables/arms. In fact, that's what I will one day upgrade to to use with my Nottingham Spacedeck/Spacearm. 
But yes, your phono stage may not be quite a good match for Kleos.