Are audiophiles still out of their minds?


I've been in this hobby for 30 years and owned many gears throughout the years, but never that many cables.  I know cables can make a difference in sound quality of your system, but never dramatic like changing speakers, amplifiers, or even more importantly room treatment. Yes, I've evaluated many vaunted cables at dealers and at home over the years, but never heard dramatic effect that I would plunk $5000 for a cable. The most I've ever spent was $2700 for pair of speaker cables, and I kinda regret it to this day.  So when I see cable manufacturers charging 5 figures for their latest and "greatest" speaker cables, PC, and ICs, I have to ask myself who buys this stuff. Why would you buy a $10k+ cable, when there are so many great speakers, amplifiers, DACs for that kind of money, or room treatment that would have greater effect on your systems sound?  May be I'm getting ornery with age, like the water boy says in Adam Sandler's movie.
dracule1
jl35
1,015 posts
06-12-2016 7:45am
"to get back to your original question. I think the people who buy $10k cables are the people who buy $100k amps, $100k digital gear, $100k analog, $100k speakers. my guess is very few $100k cables systems are ever sold. little time to worry about the expenditures of the ultra wealthy..."

Actually, that’s probably true. Dracule1 just happens to be an exception to the rule since he has, according to him, some very expensive equipment. It’s just expensive cables he has heartburn with.

Geoffkait 6-11-2016 6:04 pm EDT
Lots of notable people don’t believe in things like high end cables, or say wire directionality or aftermarket fuses or fuse directionality and other things that have been around like forever. But that in itself doesn’t mean they’re not true. That’s what we in the biz refer to as an Appeal to Authority, which as you probably know is a logical fallacy.
While there are those who would consider an Appeal to Authority to be a logical fallacy, as I see it such an appeal is not at all illogical. Rather, it is simply less than conclusive, to SOME degree. The degree to which it is less than conclusive, and the persuasiveness of the appeal, comes down to a matter of judgment, taking into account the credibility and relevant background of the particular authority, the persuasiveness of conflicting evidence that may be available, the nature of the particular subject, and perhaps other factors. And as always, the judgments of different individuals will frequently differ.

Regards,
-- Al

Almarg wrote,

"While there are those who would consider an Appeal to Authority to be a logical fallacy, as I see it such an appeal is not at all illogical. Rather, it is simply less than conclusive, to SOME degree. The degree to which it is less than conclusive, and the persuasiveness of the appeal, comes down to a matter of judgment, taking into account the credibility and relevant background of the particular authority, the persuasiveness of conflicting evidence that may be available, the nature of the particular subject, and perhaps other factors. And as always, the judgments of different individuals will frequently differ."

OK, let’s look at this type of argument more closely, shall we?

APPEAL TO AUTHORITY

Argument from authority, also ad verecundiam and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy.[1]

In informal reasoning, the appeal to authority is a form of argument attempting to establish a statistical syllogism.[2] The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form:[3]

A is an authority on a particular topic
A says something about that topic
A is probably correct
Fallacious examples of using the appeal include any appeal to authority used in the context of logical reasoning, and appealing to the position of an authority or authorities to dismiss evidence,[4][5][6][7] as authorities can come to the wrong judgments through error, bias, dishonesty, or falling prey to groupthink. Thus, the appeal to authority is not a generally reliable argument for establishing facts.[8]

Forms
General
The argument from authority can take several forms. As a syllogism, the argument has the following basic structure:[5][9]

A says P about subject matter S.
A should be trusted about subject matter S.
Therefore, P is correct.
The second premise is not accepted as valid, as it amounts to an unfounded assertion that leads to circular reasoning able to define person or group A into inerrancy on any subject matter.[5][10]

Ergo, the claim that some legendary designs don’t believe in audiophile cables proves that there are no audible differences among cables is the VERY DEFINITION of an Appeal to Authority. Frustrating, ain’t it?It looks convincing only on the surface. But it fails to prove or even provide evidence of anythung. Any more than the argument that some blind test somewhere, who knows where, or the very threat of controlled blind tests, proves that there are no differences among cables. Hel-loo! For one thing some folks have axes to grind. So their opinions are unreliable. Besides, as I said previously, not all legendary designers think alike. For example John Curl DOES believe in audiophile cables. Ditto Lloyd Walker of Walker Audio, Lamm, von Schweikert. there’s a bunch. Trust me.

Cheers,

geoff kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio concepts
I figured it wouldn’t be too long before blind testing raised its ugly head. 
"ugly head?"
Geeze Geoff, you can be more creative than pulling that page from your well-worn playbook.

What I don't understand is how you and others can support the miraculous effects of cables, fuses, wire direction and other minutia, by saying the differences can obviously be heard, but then discount a method that provides listeners the opportunity to judge what sounds best based on the differences they hear, in the absence of other sensory and social influences.  When challenged, many say the DBT method is not perfect but then neither is dropping some expensive item, or the "latest and greatest" version of something, into your system and heralding the positive effects without considering cognitive bias, golden halo effects, social reality and other psychological phenomena that could have a larger effect on influencing listeners than the potential drawbacks to DBT.
fortunately we each get to listen to cables and other products and buy the ones we want to buy...