Equipment Rack


Does it make sense to spend several thousands of dollars on a equipment rack, if Stillpoints are used under every component?
ricred1

oleschool
381 posts
09-09-2016 5:37pm
I,m not a pro geoff ,all i know is they made a marked improvemnent in my setup (guitars ya i know my way around the 100 plus i have owned after 35 yrs ).I,m sure there are better or newer setups i cannot respond because i use the audiopoints.Regardless of anyones comments pro or con.I personnally used them first under my spkrs-tighter bass and better soundstage openess, under my sub -massive change in performance. Under my tt -i got better low end and a more open sound ,and also they look cool under it lol. they are now under every piece of gear i have including my rack and power supply .I am a fan personnally thats all i can say .No more no less ,they improved "MY" sound."

Oleschool, just in case I wasn’t clear, I am not disputing your results with the Audiopoints. Actually, I haven’t heard anyone make comments con, as you suggest. I was using Audiopoints 25 years ago. Furthermore, unlike the claims of both Mike and Robert, you know, the claims how Audiopoints work, I.e., by removing micro vibration from the component, vibration produced by motors, transformers, CD transport mechanisms, I trust I’m not putting words in their mouths, strongly suggests that the vibration in the component IS A PROBLEM, no? I.e., that vibration degrades the sound. Thus, allowing vibrations to roam free in the system or the room is probably not a wise strategy. Therefore, in light of the evidence that vibration, micro and macro, is not something to just slough off or ignore, then, gentle readers, you must agree that any vibration, regardless of source is a problem, no? With the Audiopoints, the seismic type vibration is free to come up into the system and degrade the sound. I don’t think anyone is prepared to claim Audiopoints stifle seismic vibrations.

also, let me remind everyone that I have always proposed a combination of very hard cones under the component WITH vibration isolation. I actually propose cones under the component and under the vibration isolation device itself, since in my world it’s necessary to allow all vibrations to exit the iso system as rapidly as possible. And for Mikes info, Mike who is so fond of the expression "walk the walk," I am actually currently using a combination of vibration isolation and cones in my portable Walkman set up. Thus, I allow micro vibrations to EXIT the system rapidly AND disallow seismic vibrations getting up into the component. I am also not shy about using a smidgen of viscoelastic material just in case some micro vibrations have somehow escaped my elaborate trap. The only good vibration is a dead vibration. Hel-loo!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
vibration isolation and resonance control

What the SNL heck trolling is Geoff talking about now LOL!

I believe geoff is confusing michael green audio with starsound. I can't speak for Starsound but I saw nothing above that resembles michael green audio.

At the same time michael green's tuneland (the techno-zone) is enjoying all the new visitors reading our pages. You guys are more than welcome to become a part of the tuning revolution (as TAS calls us).

Next up, the Michael Green self promotion extravaganza. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Mr. Kait,

I believe you should do more research on vibration specifically in the studies of sound applications and musical instruments. In every recording studio and concert venue where I engineered sound, anti-vibration designs provided a deader (not quieter) listening space which always fatigued me. The facilities with hard surfaces always presented a live dynamic outcome when mixing or listening and that ‘live vibrant energy’ kept me totally responsive through extremely long sessions.

Vibration is not an enemy when related to sound and musical reproduction; it is a ‘constant’, very similar to how the human ear works.

Vibration contains all the dynamics and harmonic structures listeners seek to hear. There are properties, a phenomenon, formed from vibration that build and layer on “all” vibrating surfaces. These heavier amplitudes of energy forms resonance and propagates on “all” smooth surfaces.

If you research Coulomb’s Law and applied it to the recording sciences and sound, it might lead to a greater understanding.

What do we seek as listeners - live dynamics or dead harmonics?

You stated: And actually, now that I think about it there are even other cones and pointed things that are better than Audiopoints, such as for example Golden Sound's NASA grade ceramic Super DH cones. Things have changed quite a bit since thirty years ago; I think it’s fair to say.

Your background and education is in aerospace so we are certain some bias exists in that statement but just to be fair, you're listening assessment of Audio Points™ is meaningless when comparing products that cost tens ($$) of dollars to others costing in the hundreds of dollars ($$$). We are much more in favor of comparing devices of the same financial investment values. Our cost comparison product at this level would be a fourteen pound mechanical grounding plane we call the Sistrum Apprentice Platform™. We are extremely confident should you ever wish to compare ours to theirs. The differences in performance are measurable, highly audible and will sound much livelier.  

Agreed, a lot has changed in the past thirty years. The Audio Point still remains an Industry benchmark for very affordable vibration management yet has evolved into a much higher standard of performance when applying greater mass, geometry and physics hence the family of Sistrum Platforms.

You stated: While you fellows have actually done, by dismissing vibration isolation, is obtain what we refer to as a local maximum.

Not sure who you are referring to as “we” in your statement. Is it you and who else? I am sure the majority of listeners and readership does not understand the term “local maximum” so here is a brief definition provided by Wikipedia:

‘In mathematical analysis, the maxima and minima (the respective plurals of maximum and minimum) of a function, known collectively asextrema (the plural of extremum), are the largest and smallest value of the function, either within a given range (the local or relative extrema) or on the entire domain of a function’...

Please make your point more clear as to what it is we have actually done or accomplished?

In closing: One of our engineers examined your ‘Isolation Springs’ and noted there is a “shear component” as well as a “compression component” with a single metal conduit providing a “primary mechanical grounding conductor” which is very similar to our technical approach. Are you absolutely sure you products are actually isolating and not transferring resonance?

Once again, our understanding of resonance management does “NOT” dismiss the theories behind “vibration isolation”. We just disagree on the philosophy and principles behind isolating (storing) resonant energy within the component, loudspeaker or musical instrument without a mechanical means providing an exit pathway for the heavier amplitudes of detrimental resonance. Our ears do not listen to electron microscopes.

Robert

Star Sound



Robert wrote,

"In closing: One of our engineers examined your ‘Isolation Springs’ and noted there is a “shear component” as well as a “compression component” with a single metal conduit providing a “primary mechanical grounding conductor” which is very similar to our technical approach. Are you absolutely sure you products are actually isolating and not transferring resonance?"

Strange he should ask since just about everyone and his brother knows that mass on spring isolation devices work by attenuating the transmission of seismic vibrations according to a simple mathematical formula. Obviously the isolation effectiveness is a function of the resonant frequency of the iso system and technique in setting up the iso device as I’ve already alluded to. Thus, even advanced iso devices allow some vibration up into the component. Duh! Nobody ever claimed these iso devices are perfect, or that there is perfect isolation. However, by minimizing resonant frequency of the device, maximizing the degrees of freedom one can obtain very good results. Spring based systems are well documented and are a proven technology for vibration isolation. One need look no further than the LIGO project to detect gravity waves to see just how well (talk about understatement) springs do in real science experiments. And by employing tricks of the trade, you know, tricks like cryogenically treating the springs, one can do very well. That’s why my spring based systems have been and are in some of best systems extant. In closing let me turn your opening snarky comment around and ask you, don’t you think you and your engineer could use a little research into vibration isolation?

have a nice day

geoff kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio conceits