Lyra Atlas experiences


A few years ago, I invested in a Lyra Atlas cartridge / pickup. I have moved up, from Lyra Clavis in the early 2000s and Lyra Titan i later. The Atlas was expensive, but I have not looked back. Yet I wonder, can something more be done, to optimize the Atlas, in my system, and others. How can this remarkable pickup run its best. What are the best phono preamp and system matches. Should the system be rearranged. Have anyone done mods or DIYs to their systems to get the "reception" right? What happened? Comments welcome. You dont need to own a Lyra Atlas but you should have heard it, to join this discussion. Comments from the folks at Lyra are extra welcome - what is your experience.
Oystein
Ag insider logo xs@2xo_holter
Dear @stringreen : I know exactly what you mean. Subject is that some us are accustomed to a false model of kind of sound that is not close to what MUSIC sounds. 
This is the real problem. We can read in this and other forums recomendations like:
""" trust in what you like  "  trust in your ears " , but no one recomend to think how live MUSIC sounds at nearfield position and if we never had this experience it's useless to discuss/argue about.

Any one can go where are piano for sale  and play one key ( at real level. ) and hear it how it sounds and will understand the whole subject.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
Dear @o_holter and friends: IMHO, the main subject of what some of us are posting here about MUSIC sounds is the more critical and important subject for any considerated music lover and real audiophiles.

Here I'm not discussing about audio system per se or trying to diminsh any one system but only try to understand ( for me too. ) what is our day by day reality. I want to repeat that I'm not against tubes but in favor of MUSIC and our home analog experiences.

I can be wrong and as a fact if I'm I want to know ( do you too? ), so any one opinion in this " free " audio world is welcomed.

Exist several audio subjects where all of us have diferent levels of misunderstood and this include audio item manufacturers and pro-reviewers as audio distributors.

Examples: when some one ask for a tube phono stage we can read answers ( through the threads. ) like this: " Herron " and the Herron owners or advocates to hybrids designs as the Herron things on it as a tube unit when it's not. Those hybrid units use tubes too but the whole unit signature comes from that FET input gain that puts easily 70%+ of that unit signature. After this gain stage the best we can do ( the manufacturer/designer ) is try to do the less harm to that cartridge signal and through tubes or SS stages that input signal is degraded some way or the other and tubes makes a higher degradation. So tube phono stages are only the full and all tubes designs.

Now, one of the main targets in any phono stage design and independent if is SS;tube or hybrid the used devices in the input gain stage and the follower stages must be matched with the kind of cartridge " motor " that phono stage is dedicated: for LOMC or MM, both electrically needs are diferent and for what exist in the active parts market we have bipolars, tubes or FETs.
Well LOMC demands for the bipolars and MM for FETs.

Only a few top SS use bipolars for LOMC cartridges and many comes with FETs ( that sound good but not at the same level that bipolars designs. Yes, we can her the differences. ) and all hybrids with FETs.
Question is: why FETs with MC instead bipolars?, because is way/a lot more easy the design with FETs than bipolars ( and tubes even more easy. ) where for example: we have to used matched bipolars and take care in extreme the way we make the polarization of those bipolar devices that with FETs we have to do nothing about we don't have to " worried " during the unit design. It's more complex of what I'm explain here.

Where learn I all those ( and many other things. )?. Many years ago when my friend and I decided to build a Phonolinepreamp for my audio system. A unit that was voiced for almost two years with different active devices and design topologies and was in those times when surge my Phonolinepreamp that with out ask one Agoner told me if we can build one for him and I say no but after a second email we accepted and other than me he was the first music lover and audiophile we share our unit and after that other six lucky gentlemans like this ( no, I don't sale nothing and don't build it anymore. Maybe some day, who knows.):

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/1253

and read what this gentleman posted in other thread a few days ago:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-platter-mat-especially-for-dd-turntables/post?postid=135... 

Look my Phonolinepreamp has two totally separated dual mono phono stages: one MC dedicated with bipolars devices and the MM with FETs, both diferent designs and additional comes with integrated dual mono line stage and with a " perfect " RIAA eq.. NO, I'm not promoting nothing, all are examples of where are the foundation of what I post.


For music lovers and true audiophiles I think that we must to have a " simple " excercise:

attend for at least 2-3 weeks to 5-6 music live events ( mainly with acoustic instruments and voice is important too. Near field seated position.  ), play personally any acoustic instrument key or keys at real SPL and listen very very carefully on: music transients, instrument attaks, power, rythm, dynamics, overall tonal balance, top to bottom " colorations ", that natural music agresiveness and the natural distortion levels.

From there return to our audio system ( during the live tests time we don't listen our system. ) to evaluate how close or away is our system from the live experiences and what to do what to change or how fine tune the system for we can be closer than where today we are and this " fine tune " is almost endless and main system target. 
One main " parameter " for the excercise has success is that we must forgeret of all what we " learned " about tubes or about SS electronics and that we don't try that our fine tune goes and that sounds as what we are accustomed for years. NO, this excercise is to close a window and open a NEW ONE for the better.
That's what I did it when where in the long process to build my Phonolinepreamp, I was not thinking in all my tube experiences but neither with SS units, I was thinking only in how live MUSIC sounds.

The only thing I can say is that's worth repeat worth the effort with big rewards in favor of what we like: ENJOY MUSIC at the very top quality level.

Yes, we have to make a plan how to do it and have an audio system proved whole evaluation process.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.





raul -

I have read numerous comments and opinions from you over the years.  Some seem reasonable, some interesting, some I don't necessarily agree with. 

I have owned to the Herron Audio VTPH-1 and currently, the Herron VTPH-2.  I have to disagree with your assessment, and description.  I'm not sure where you're receiving the design information or how your performing your own personal evaluation. 

IMO, there is no difference between the sound of the all-tube mm VTPH-2 section and the FET front-end loaded with 47k ohms for extra gain needed for the mc front-end to that all-tube VTPH-2.  No difference.  The FET front-end seems quite transparent and does not contribute a "signature" as you describe or it would be apparent when it is bypassed.  Therefore, to claim that the "sound" of the Herron is based on the FET section and that the tubes are compensating for the FETs is not accurate. 

And further to your post, and particularly toward Herron Audio equipment, I have heard nothing that more closely approaches the sound of a live performance than the combination of the Herron VTPH-2 and VTSP-3a(r03).  Nothing.  At any cost or availability. 

Can the Herron Audio components be improved? Probably. But IMO, nothing exists that is better. Nothing comes close is its cost.

Is there collection of electronics that actually fully replicates a live performance?  No.  All we can hope to do is get as close as possible.  We all have our own listening preferences, but in the end, nobody is actually performing in our respective listening rooms.



 
Dear bpolleti: Are you seriously?, I took Herron as an example and with all respect to you: if you can't hear a difference between a MC circuit with a gain input FET stage and other with out it then something is wrong down there:

- low system resolution,
- analog rig not up to the task,
- non adequated and full proved evaluation whole system test process,
- non educated ears or not know what to look for.

Btw, the higher ( against SS designs. )  output impedance on tube units or hybrids like your Herron gives a higher degradation to the signal that goes to the external line stage and if this is a tube unit then same happens when the signal goes out to the amps.

bpolleti, the Herron in not here under scrutiny ( I'm not criticize the Herron. ), main subject is way different. Stay calm and try to understand the main overall subject.

Just curiosity because tha's not the subject here and could be useless: how do you made the precise two diferent stages evaluation to say both performs the same?. Again, just curiosity and you can email me about if don't want it here and don't want to open another discussion " window ".

regards and enjoy the music,
R.


Raul -

I have nothing to hide in private emails that can't be said in this thread.  I have made my comments public regarding my opinion of Herron Audion equipment.  Those views haven't changed.  When you're going to retract your comments, then it should be made on the forum, not hidden in private email. 

The evaluation was easy. Use the same cartridge into both inputs (the MC input is loaded with 47K ohms) adjusting the preamp level to account for the differences in gain.  

You stated that the Herron Audio phono stage uses a FET section that has a distinct sonic signature and uses downstream tubes to overcome that signature.  But there are no tubes in the actual phono stage itself, just the MC front-end. 

Of all the owners and reviewers discussing the Herron VTPH-2 I've encountered and/or whose comments I have read, none have ever claimed to have heard a sonic signature associated with the FET MC front end.  To the contrary, I can't recall any that have claimed the unit had a signature at all. 

But you must be right.  Thank you for pointing out our failures and shortcomings.