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Questioning the need for a DAC

Friends,
I have a modified Oppo 103 that was a huge step up from my $2K Consonance tube CD player.  I also have a Jolida FX Tube DAC, maybe the II version, which I have had for many years.  I ran the Oppo directly into my system (I have a Don Sachs tube preamp and various amps, tube and SS, and Spatial Audio Hologram M4 Turbo S speakers) and then through the Jolida.  I honestly didn't hear a difference.  Some months later,  I demo'd a Schiit Gungnir and did the same comparison.  I really couldn't discern an audible difference with the Schiit in or out of the system.  I will admit that I sent the Schiit back for a refund after only 30 hours or so of burn-in so maybe 100 hours of burn-in might have lead to a different outcome.  A boatload of audiophiles rave about the sonic improvement with the pricey DAC's in their systems, no question about it.  With my ears, not so much.  

A "cheap and cheerful" audiophile friend of mine, who doesn't listen to much digitally-reproduced music, posed an interesting question.   If one invests in a modern quality CD player (i.e., like the Oppo 103 or 105, which make the Stereophile list of "Class A" products or many others between $1K-$5K), why is there the expectation that one needs a separate DAC to improve the sound of the DAC?   It is not trivial question.  As a matter of fact, I called Oppo while I was auditioning the Schiit DAC, nonplussed, asking why I wasn't hearing some significant improvement with the addition of an external DAC of the caliber of the Gungnir.  In response, the Oppo rep suggested, quite casually, that maybe the internal DAC in the modestly-priced Oppo 103 was quite good.  Indeed, because that is what my 63-year old ears told me.

I'd be keen to hear feedback from others who ponder the same question.   As I age, I am aware of the desire of sellers of many audio products to strike a deal with me that frankly might benefit them more financially than I  benefit sonically.  Cheers, Mark 

  
whitestix
randy-11
1,913 posts
 
You don't say how you tested nor on what equipment, or music.

I would expect the OPPO DAC to be very good.  I'd also expect the type of speakers (and the ability of the amps to control the speakers) to be fairly critical.  We might be at the dawning of the Age of A-DACiness (an Aquarian analogy where most DACs are pretty durn good; A quality and A+ or A- but no D- DACs).

I did some preliminary testing on a stock Oppo 103 vs. my ancient Cal audio Icon and did not find a different or much difference.  I didn't have time to make up a good A/B set of discs, but RS, Floyd etc. did not sound much different to my 64 year old ears using a Sonic Frontiers Line One > Sunfire Cinema Grand bi-amping Maggie 1.5Qs. I did try hard to listen to the initial attack impulse on drums and perhaps there was something there??

IF I'd used Jazz at the Pawnshop maybe I could have heard a big difference - maybe.  But I don't really like that CD all that much.
whitestix OP
695 posts
 
Hi Randy, 
My test of the addition of the Schiit Gungir to my system was rather straightforward.  I played the Oppo straight into my preamp and then inserted the Schiit into the system.  My preamp is a Don Sachs 6SN7-based preamp and an upgraded CJ MF-80 amp, with Spatial Audio Hologram M4 Turbo S speakers in a well-treated room.  I had a Consonance tube CD player before the Oppo 103 and the improvement in sound with the Oppo was absolutely immediately noticeable and profound.  I think the inescapable conclusion, to my 63-year old ears, is that the Oppo is a very worthy CD player.   

In defiance of my own logic, I bought a Channel Islands DAC/power supply today to see if I find some improvement with it.  I will report back on this thread if I hear some improvement with the new DAC.  

Two final thoughts.  My frame of reference for upgrades is that if I don't hear a noticeable sonic improvement with the substitution of a new piece of gear within a few notes then it probably isn't worthwhile (allowing for break-in, of course).  Some might see this as an imperious judgment, but I have experienced it with the Oppo and with lots of tube rolling in my system, and with a couple of IC's.  My sense is that if I have to work to hear the "improvement", it probably doesn't exist.  Secondly, I think that current CD players even the price point of my Oppo, and tons come to mind, all have pretty good internal DAC's, for which the addition of an external DAC might be superfluous.

Randy, you note that you don't like CD's much.  My audio pal has $10K Brodmann speakers, VPI TT with a fine tone arm and $2K MC cartridge, and the $20K top-of-the line ARC amp/preamp combo.  His digital source is a ~$5K Modwright-modified Oppo CD player.  We recently did an A/B comparison of the same music comparing the analogue and digital versions, back and forth between the same cuts in real time.  Lots of the music was new analogue Blue Notes issues, 45rpm, and the same PCM recordings and a few SACD's.  We did at least a dozen comparisons and the uniform conclusion we reached was that there was no perceptible difference between the formats... not on one recording, not on any recording.  I have an upgraded SOTA TT, with a very fine tonearm and Dynavector MC cartridge, with a thousand jazz LP's, but I haven't played it in months as I find no sonic improvement over my digital versions of the same music.  

Anyway, that is my take.  Cheers.    

randy-11
1,913 posts
 
if you are addressing me then you didn't understand my comments
whitestix OP
695 posts
 
Hi Randy,
Sorry if I misunderstand you comments.  I thought your post and my response was pretty straight forward.  What did I miss?
randy-11
1,913 posts
 
For one, I like CDs.

I prefer them to the snap/pop/crackle of vinyl.  The CD does need to be properly mastered tho.

I also agree that the Oppo has a pretty good internal DAC.
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