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High end vintage vs contemporary DAC's - are sonic improvements real?

The vintage DAC question seems to arise regularly, more or less along these lines:
     "I can get an old XYZ for $2000 or a new ABC for the same $$.  What to do?" 
The answer almost always seems to be "go with the new ABC, the XYZ is older technology," "digital has improved enormously," etc etc. 

Obviously digital technology HAS improved enormously in the last 20 years (or even 10 years, or the last week depending on your belief system).  Sampling rates have marched upwards (though many will say that anything over 24b/96khz is a waste, and I agree) and everything has gotten cheaper and smaller.  Music servers have evolved and storage is cheap.  We have streaming now and use phones as remote controls to manage infinitely large music collections.  The list goes on and on.  Yet in my mind it's really THIS stuff that's embedded in the assertion that "digital is much much better than it used to be."

But how many people have actually compared a high end DAC from, say, 1996 (now selling for $1500), with a new DAC for the same $$?  Sure, features won't be the same - the old unit won't have USB anything, higher sampling rates, etc.  Yet for all that, I can't recall any conversations on actual apples vs apples comparisons of new vs old, especially on the **same** source material, specifically on a Red Book CD or a lossless CD file rip.

Example: In 1992 the Mark Levinson No.30 DAC was sonically at the top of top for Red Book CD reproduction (feel free to substitute your favorite DAC of that era).  Fast forward to the present. How much better does today's DAC de jour sound playing that same CD?  Sure, source file X recorded and mastered at 24b/192khz will likely sound better than the same file downsampled to 16b/44.1khz when played on a decent system.   But will a Red Book CD played on a new DAC sound better than the same CD through that ML No.30? 

To be clear, this isn't about sampling rate or format wars.  Think of it like this:
Let's say I have 15,000 CD's, that's all I ever want to play, and I've $3000 to spend.   What would I get for the same $$ that would sonically do as well as the No.30 playing the same CD?  Is the answer "almost anything, because sonics have improved so much"?  Or maybe it's the $10k such-and-such.  Hopefully this illustrates the question.

Comments and thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
raueda1
erik_squires
16,879 posts
 
I'd say room treatment was more important than speakers. :)  In the sense that once you have good room treatment you won't swap it out, but you may change speakers a dozen times.

It's also a bit of a chicken and egg problem though.  Consider for instance, that with room treatment, smaller speakers seem fuller, and larger speakers don't sound muddy and boomy. So, in fact, good room treatment changes what speakers you may be happy with.

Best,


Erik
michaeljbrown
146 posts
 
I've had a Classe DAC 1 with a PS Audio Lambda transport for 5-6 years now; I find no reason to "upgrade" to anything else, and I am so glad to see that others share similar views. This pair is the only component remaining in my system and now I can be glad I have let my ears lead the way..

erik_squires
16,879 posts
 
Well, I wouldn't say there's been no improvements.

One thing I've noticed with the latest batch of DAC's (Schiit, Mytek) is they handle Redbook tons better than older DAC's. The difference between 44/16 and 96/24 to my ears has all but disappeared. That's new.

So, I would say listen to those, or a BADA or an Ayre Codex and pay attention to two things. How they handle redbook, and bass.
czarivey
5,946 posts
 
I have 20 years old EAD DSP 7000 I purchased at pawn shop for $45. For red book CD or HDCD it's giant killer with very solid built quality.
One of my favorite budget CD-players Pioneer FD907 has 1-bit DLC converter. I got this one of the yard sale $15.


gadawg58
43 posts
 
I had a Mark Levinson No 360s which did up to 96K music and really was very happy with it. They can be had today around $2500 so I compared that to the OPPO 105d that I bought for my theater system and I have to say the Levinson was much better in almost every way with everything up to 96k. I kept it for another year then recently auditioned the Audio Research DAC 9 and well ... it's now at home and my Levinson No360s is in another home! The really high end components like the Levinson had such good analog output sections and that's where many lower prices players just can't complete and a reason that many times you have to spend a decent sum of money to better them even today. I'm NOT saying other less expensive DAC's than the DAC 9 won't do it I just haven't heard one I liked better. Good luck! And yes ... even redbook CD is MUCH better on my ARC but then it glows on the inside so that's part of it! :-)
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