Wilson Audio Haters

Itzhak1969 you couldn't be more wrong!  Pretty much all speakers benefit from a properly placed and integrated sub.   And 4 8" drivers is not an overwhelming amount/size. Do you understand what the excursion would be for a 20hz note??!!  And then they may be required to do a 400hz note at the same time. 

With small 8" woofers obviously you need a subwoofer. 2 x 8 inch does not even equate to a 12 inch. Furthermore small voice coils and less Xmax and poor linearity and poor heat handling make small woofers totally inadequate for ultra LF - so except for pleasing aesthetics of a narrow speaker this size woofer really is still around the mid point of highest end - it can sound excellent but is still short of true full range.

I have 15 inch woofers on my mains now and I don’t feel need for the 15 inch sub anymore - it doesn’t add anything - except for movies. When I had 12 inch woofers the subwoofer was actually necessary.

With respect to the Onkyo 5509. I can concur with Bo that this is a great DSP for HT systems - it worked great in my 7.1 setup. When you have 7 speakers in one room you definitely need a clever DSP with something like Audyssey XT32 or other room EQ software. I am completely sold on that concept. The room is a huge problem and getting a balanced totally clear clean sound is a huge challenge with so many speakers creating LF modes and reflections everywhere. The 5509 with the calibration microphone fixes everything in less than 20 minutes - brilliant.

That said, I prefer two channel music listening without any DSP at all. Although the Audyssey XT32 room correction sounds very good - to me pure two channel still has the edge but it might be just my room (in another less favourable room perhaps DSP two channel might have the edge)

Many Full Range capable speakers are set up in rooms that do not support 20 hz. Meaning...... they can’t hit the notes or the notes are way too low in DB for the room. This could be for a number of reasons; the room space itself, and/or the constraints in how the owner is allowed to place the speakers in the room; the amp, etc...

The speaker manufacturers know this. It’s a very old story. They have a choice to make. They can EQ their main full range model, with woofers to handle EQ; or they can leave well enough alone, and bring out a new speaker - the subwoofer - to add to the bottom line both financially, and music wise. The subwoofers provide the additional benefits of allowing optional placements to fit bass into the room better with the main speakers.

.... unless you’re Bo1972, whose business model we have seen, is to place the subwoofer beside the main full range speaker butted up against the wall. Then EQ the hell out of it. And hey ...why not.... For the average person whose gear - no matter what gear - needs to placed along the front wall, this business model works out.

But put that same person in a room where the speakers are placed, and amp’ed as designed; and that person, depending on how audio crazed he/she is after hearing; will be looking for a new place and/or spouse.
How far do you want audiophilia nervosa to take you?

If you want to see how well your rig does without having to listen to test tones. Send this Phill Collins "In the Air Tonight", Bass TEST, through your DAC on your rig.

Click on the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0U5qunTUJk

"With small 8" woofers obviously you need a subwoofer."

I guess Jim Thiel (RIP) did not get that memo. The CS5 he designed used 8" woofers and measured flat at 30Hz, -3db at 25Hz, and -5db at 20Hz.

Dave