Choosing Sub-woofers. Please advise ASAP.

What you completly fail to understand is that 99% of anyone, will not be able to use 2 other cabinets in their room, especially since they too have to be placed in specific positions based on your theory.  It's not realistic. I"m happy that you have the ability to do it, but I'll take my Quatro's which sound better to me than anything under 30k.  The bass is outstanding.  

The other problem you may agree with, but gloss over is quality.  Bass is by far the most expensive part of the equation and just because someone can afford two extra subs (if they have built in subs which most in the US don't), doesn't mean they can afford outstanding quality subs in order to get better bass. If inferior subs are used, then the bass will suffer much more than just using dual subs that are built in.  That's too is reality.  Doesn't matter how many boxes you use to smooth things out, if it's not top quality, it will sound like garbage. 

I've never heard any aftermarket sub sound great with a Vandersteen than his own. That said it would still be an extra 5k I guess to get two more (that I can't fit into my room for many reasons).  At that point, I'd much rather put that towards better source as I already have 99% of the great bass that my active speaker offers.  

You can make as many posts as you want telling us how great 4 subs will sound and I agreed with you with the caveat that I post again in this thread.  I'm thrilled that you love a specific set of subs. That's honestly awesome and what we all love this hobby.  You can talk about what great quality the swarm subs are, but I'm highly skeptical that they would be up to the quality of most of the subs folks are talking about in this thread as cost is a factor, especially when building bass as it's just hard to do properly and very expensive.  

ctsooner,

 " What you completely fail to understand is that 99% of anyone, will not be able to use 2 other cabinets in their room, especially since they too have to be placed in specific positions based on your theory."

       I'm beginning to feel like we both just completed our first lap in our ongoing discussion on Choosing a Subwoofer and we're heading back into turn #1 to run lap #1 all over again.  

      I don't know about you, but I'd rather not rehash points we already made in previous posts on this thread.

     I think we've both  already made our viewpoints on choosing a subwoofer clear.  

     I'm going to excuse myself from this thread by making a few additional points and summarizing my thoughts on this subject for posterity:

DBAs using a minimum of four subs have been scientifically proven to work incredibly well in providing excellent bass response in virtually any room of any size or shape.

Complete DBA systems, such as the Audio Kinesis Swarm and Debra systems, offer very good bass response at a relatively affordable price of about $3K.

Custom DBA systems can be created by anyone using four even higher quality subs that they prefer.  However, these may be considerably more expensive with possibly only marginal improvements.

If state of the art (SOA) bass response is sought, a DBA using at least 4 subs is required.

Those numerous Audiogon members and others that believe achieving great bass response is just a matter of finding the right brand or model sub and using 1 or 2 in their system will continue to be disappointed in the results not because their chosen sub is not good enough but because they used too few of them. 

Any bass systems not utilizing at least 4 subs will be a compromise according to acoustical experts and my personal experience. Systems using 3 or fewer subs may perform sufficiently well to satisfy their owners at a single designated listening position but allow too many bass standing waves to exist in their rooms to qualify as a SOA bass system.

Properly setup DBAs result in consistently very good bass response throughout the entire room, not just a designated sweet spot.  This makes it an ideal solution for HT use with multiple seating.

ctsooner has claimed that 99% of people will not be able to accommodate 4 subs in their rooms.  99% smells suspiciously to me like a POOMA number; a number ctsooner would likely admit under oath that "I pulled out of my ass". 

Anyone unable or unwilling to accommodate 4 subs in their rooms will, unfortunately, have to settle for less intrusive solutions that will have lower quality bass performance.

Those who are serious about attaining SOA bass performance in their rooms will find a way to accommodate the 4 required subs. 


 The distributed bass array (DBA) method was initially a theory proposed by 2 acoustical physics PHDs, Dr.  Geddes and Dr. O'Toole.   These 2 experts subsequently conducted scientific experiments that validated their theory and published a White Paper detailing the theory, testing method,  results and conclusions.  The gist of their primary conclusion was that bass standing waves, in a wide variety of room sizes and shapes tested, continue to be reduced as more bass source points (subs) are added.  They state that the majority of bass standing waves were reduced at the point that 4 subs were operating, with additional subs only having marginal affect.  

     As their results were consistently duplicated by other acoustic experts via independent scientific testing, the use of DBA systems to provide excellent bass performance in virtually any room transformed from a theory into a  proven and universally accepted solution among acoustic experts.

     I stated the above facts to make it clear that the DBA method is not 'my theory' but a theory proposed and proven valid by a couple of PHD acoustical engineers.

     Okay, I believe that summarizes my current thoughts on subwoofers and bass systems.  

    I wrote this likely final post on this thread with the intent to share with current and future thread readers what I've learned and the solution I ultimately discovered on my long journey to achieve excellent bass response in my system in my room.

    I hope this viewpoint will benefit others on a similar search.

Thanks,
   Tim   

Hi Tim you know you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink . All i can say my system for the last 3 years was a DSP controlled stereo sub set up I thought I had good bass at least in my one listening spot . Now after hooking up two more REL subs I have great bass all over the room . The rule is three is mandatory and adding the fourth is the end game any more and its a waste .    

Hi enginedr1960,

  "Tim you know you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink "

  Exactly right.  My sense is that many agree with the DBA concept and want really good bass response in their rooms  but find it difficult to drink/accept the 4 subs in their rooms.  Understandable but you seem to have found a way to fit 4 Rel subs in your room and you're now enjoying the benefits of a custom DBA.  Which Rel subs are you using? 

  " The rule is three is mandatory and adding the fourth is the end game any more and its a waste ."    

     Have you tried using 3 subs in your room?  I went directly from 2 to 4 in my room and never even tried 3.  I know Dr. Geddes mentioned the use of 3 subs in his White Paper and I'm curious how close you found the results of using 3 subs came to the use of 4 in your room.

     I'm very glad to know at least 1 fellow Audiogon member has tried the DBA system and has firsthand experience with how well it actually works.

Congrats and enjoy,
      Tim 

Tim, you can't say that we can't talk about something again, because you don't want to.  That is a major part of my point. I agree that 4 subs is optimal.  You said you were out after your last thread that was pretty long.  Then you post again, so I guess you are still in??  Either way, it's not big deal.

Bottom line is that I have been asking a lot of my audiophile friends if they'd use 4 subs in their systems. Many have active Vandersteen's and they said they would't be able to fit them into the room due to many domestic reasons.  If you have full control over your room and feel you need to spend the extra money, that's awesome. Most don't.  Simple point and hard to argue against regardless of it sounding better.  

Not even really disagreeing with you too much. Only on a few points.