Hey, bgpowell...I've heard of and been to the Newform site. Been curious about their drivers, how do they sound to you vs. any other line source ribbon/planar of that design that you may have run into? Most of that type ( Bohlender-Graebner 's, and the like) tend to be dipoles instead of monopoles. Being a dipole/omni fan in general, I'm curious and would like to hear a critique'...*S*
Let's talk Tweeters!
Mind you, I do not believe in a "best" type of tweeter, nor do I believe in a best brand of speaker, so lets keep that type of conversation out, and use this instead to focus on learning about choices speaker designers make and what that may mean to the end user.
There is no such thing as a speaker driver without trade offs. Some choices must be forsworn in exchange for another.
In the end, the materials used, magnet and motor structure, and crossover choices as well as the listening room come together to make a great speaker, of which there are many. In addition, we all listen for different things. Imaging, sweetness, warmth, detail, dance-ability and even efficiency so there is no single way to measure a driver and rate it against all others.
Also, please keep ads for your 4th dimensional sound or whatever off this thread. Thanks.
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...arriving late, as usual... Hey, bgpowell...I've heard of and been to the Newform site. Been curious about their drivers, how do they sound to you vs. any other line source ribbon/planar of that design that you may have run into? Most of that type ( Bohlender-Graebner 's, and the like) tend to be dipoles instead of monopoles. Being a dipole/omni fan in general, I'm curious and would like to hear a critique'...*S* |
Erik wrote: Let's focus on learning
about choices speaker designers make and what that may mean to the
end user. Duke replies: I can't speak for any
other designers, but for me speaker design starts with figuring out
what the priorities are, and then hopefully finding a way to
accomplish them (or come as close as is practical) within whatever
constraints are imposed. So the system concept comes first, and then
the design specifics follow. Thus I see tweeters (and every other
part of a speaker) as just part of a system, and no more than a means
to an end, which in high-end home audio is usually something like “a
sufficiently convincing perception of listening to live music”. Erik: First, for any given type of dispersion, speakers need to
roll off more or less evenly. You don’t want to be 15 degrees off
axis and only hear the mid-range. Ideally the speaker’s dispersion
is even across as much of the response as possible, but usually this
can only be done starting in the upper bass. Duke: Yes! The radiation pattern plays a far greater role in
what we perceive than most people appreciate. Most of the sound we
hear in most home audio systems starts out being dispersed off-axis. Erik: Next, the wider the dispersion, the more early reflections
you may encounter, which can severely affect the frequency response
and imaging. Duke: Agreed. In general early reflections are detrimental, but
later reflections can be quite beneficial. Erik: The very large diaphragms of ESL speakers (Martin Logan/InnerSound, etc.) have fabulous clarity thanks to this effect. They can sound like you have headphones on even with very little room treatment. Duke: Dipolar electrostats typically have a narrow radiation
pattern that minimizes early reflections, and then have a
spectrally-correct backwave that reflects off the wall behind the
speakers. If the panels are far enough out into the room, that
backwave energy is sufficiently late-arriving to be quite beneficial.
Erik: Drivers with different dispersion patterns _may_ also have
different rate of decay. Consider a hybrid ESL + cone woofer. The
woofer radiates omni-directionally and the wavefront looses energy
the fastest, while the ESL panel is a plane wave, with narrow
dispersion and looses energy more slowly. Duke: This would be an example of an extreme radiation pattern
discrepancy (narrow-pattern line-source panel combined with
quasi-omni point-source woofer). Unfortunately it is not possible to
equalize such a system so that the first-arrival sound and the
reverberant sound have the same spectral balance (something that
would be psychoacoustically desirable – I can explain why if anyone
is interested). The best we can hope for is a juggling of tradeoffs
that works at our chosen listening distance. In general, the lower
the crossover frequency between woofer and panel, the better, as long
as we don't overly compromise something else. Erik: Two of the most important measurements for me are
Cumulative Spectral Decay and compression. The first measures energy
storage, or "blur" that a tweeter adds to the sound because
it won’t stop fast enough. The second measures how a tweeter’s
response changes at different volumes. Duke: We want to minimize anything that's a source of audible
coloration, and in the tweeter region, what's happening in the time
domain matters a great deal. You mentioned compression – great job of paying attention to
something that matters, but doesn't show up on a spec sheet! Thermal
compression effects not only suck the dynamic life out of the sound,
they are often responsible for a speaker system's tonal balance
changing with volume level, which can happen if the various drivers
have differing thermal compression characteristics (which they
usually do). Erik: Usually when I hear about issues integrating woofers with
very light tweeters it's a frequency response issue, and integration
with the room issue. Duke: Note that the “frequency response” we hear is NOT the
one in the published curve – that is only the on-axis response,
which may not even be our first-arrival sound if we're sitting
off-axis. And then the reverberant energy – remember that's
usually most of the sound that reaches our ears - may well (and
usually does) have a significantly different spectral balance. At
the risk of over-simplifying, the “frequency response” that we
perceive is a weighted average of the two. So what comes across as a
room integration issue may well have its roots in a radiation pattern
discontinuity in the crossover region. Thus the room gets blamed for
colorations that can be traced back to problems in the radiation
pattern, which in turn are (arguably) loudspeaker design
deficiencies. A few additional thoughts: Imo one incorrect approach to speaker design would be this: Take
“the best woofer”and “the best midrange” and “the best
tweeter” and combine them using “the best crossover” and put
them into “the best enclosure”. This can easily result in an
overly expensive speaker whose different parts do not play well
together, resulting in a lack of coherence that becomes distracting
over time. This would be an example of putting the design specifics
first. Imo one correct approach to speaker design would be this: Choose
all of the components based on how well they will work together with
each other, with the room, and even with the amplifier towards
achieving an intelligently-selected perceptual goal. This would be
an example of putting the system concept first. So my opinion on tweeters is, they are just one part of a system,
and imo it's not cost-effective to trade off good system synergy for
the sake of using “the best tweeter”. To give an example, I
don't think anyone has accused Andrew Jones of using the best
tweeters, but those of us who compete with him must admit that he is
a master of system synergy. Given my particular, perhaps somewhat unorthodox set of priorities, tweeters whose radiation patterns change significantly with frequency are not the ideal tools for what I'm trying to do, though they can be made to work reasonably well with careful juggling of tradeoffs. My preference is generally for tweeters that use a particular type of waveguide or horn: Constant-directivity with low diffraction, with the intention of crossing over where the woofer's radiation pattern approximately matches the horn's. System concept first, design specifics second. |
@audiokinesis While this thread is focused on tweeters, we should realize they provide the least contributions to the music, measured by energy content. Lots of listeners could loose both of their tweeters and not realize it by hearing. :) Also, compression comes in at two types, as far as I know. Thermal compression means the driver heats up, and efficiency is lost. This can happen extremely quickly, within a couple of Hz. What makes this so nasty is that essentially your speaker plays differently after warming up than it did at the start. Then there's static compression, which all drivers have, but some more audibly than others. This is a limit of the suspension and linearity due to the coil and magnetic field. The static compression is relatively easy to measure, and AFAIK Speakermeasurements.com is the only commercial speaker reviewer that does so. IMHO this is something Stereophile should have incorporated decades ago. |
My understanding is that there are two general areas of thermal compression effects. The one that has been studied and documented the best is what we might call long-term compression, which arises from both voice coil heating and magnet heating, the latter inducing a (usually temporary) loss of magnetic strength. Less well studied is what we might call thermal modulation, which as you describe happens very quickly - quick enough to reduce a sudden peak, thereby reducing the dynamic contrast, which in turn reduces the emotional effect of the music because musicians often use dynamics to convey emotion. I would expect thermal modulation to be primarily a voice coil heating phenomenon (with an accompanying increase in resistance)... when the voice coil of a speaker is hit with a 100 watt peak, it’s like touching it with a 100 watt soldering iron. Apparently JBL has patented a voice coil alloy whose resistance doesn’t change much as it heats up, presumably to combat thermal modulation. Others have worked on this too, but far as I know JBL is the first to include it in commercial products (some of their big high-end studio monitors). A couple of years ago I had an exchange with Floyd Toole about thermal modulation, and he said they had definitely found it with some of their measurements at Harmon, and that in some cases it was pretty bad. He mentioned testing a 3-way speaker whose midrange driver was effectively compressing on peaks by about 7 dB! He’s the one who told me that thermal modulation is an area that needs to be studied more. My own approach to thermal compression and thermal modulation ended up being the brute force method - high efficiency drivers with big motors and big voice coils that won’t start going non-linear until they reach much higher SPLs than are typical for home audio. This just happened to be a fortuitous side effect of giving radiation pattern control a high priority. I’d like to learn more about "static compression", but apparently my Googling skills are weak... I couldn’t find a website for speakermeasurements.com, but apparently it is associated with SoundStage. I’m aware of their "Deviation from Linearity" test, is that what you’re referring to? Seems to me it includes thermal effects as well. Anyway kudos to them for running it - Richard C. Heyser used to do something similar back in the day for Audio magazine. Duke |
Hi Duke, I may be using the term incorrectly. Generally when I read about compression, it’s not thermal. This may be due to the fact that I don't read or do much with professional level gear, in which this is a major concern. Thermal compression can be seen with tone bursts, and you can see that after the first couple of cycles the output drops remarkably. "Static" or common compression is measured by comparing the FR at 2 different input levels. Find your level for 70 dB at 1kHz. Measure the FR. Add 20 dB of input voltage. Measure FR. The output should be +20dB everywhere. Wherever the output is NOT +20 dB is evidence of compression. Thermal compression is caused by heat, and therefore it’s effects are changing with previous input. What I’m calling "static" compression is related more to the limits of the driver’s linear travel. Look at the "Deviation from linearity" charts. Here is a speaker with excellent "linearity" or lack of compression: http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/paradigm_studio10_v5/ And here is one with relatively poor linearity: http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1564:nrc-measu... Best, E |
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