2. analog
  3. 128811-1985

Tri-Planar Vll "SE Upgrade"

Contemplating  sending my Tri-Planar Vll back to Tri Mai for his "SE Upgrade". Essentially, same carbon fiber wand and internal silver wire and leads used in his 12" U12 arm. Anybody done the dirty deed?  If so, better, worse or pretty much the same. 

I've only seen one post on the subject and that person seemed more than happy.

Thanks to anyone who responds with personal experience.  No conjecture please. 
128x128rfogel8
nandric's avatar
nandric
4,086 posts
 

Hi ivanj, I left this forum because of censorship. Four of my posts

in this thread are removed without any explantion. I am not aware

that I ever insulted any member. I try to use arguments instead of

ascriping attributes to persons. As I mentioned before the ''things''

that can be true or false are statements and not persons. It make no

sense to say that a person is true or false. You can see in this thread

that I am questioned as person and not my statements. This explains

my metaphor about strawman. The other is ''shooting at messenger''.

This was a prerogative of kings but at present any novice feels

entitled to shoot at persons who say something that they not like.

You obviously own some test records so you should know how

easy is to refute my statement about tracking ability of Triplanar.

My statement was made about my own Triplanar  . This statement

does in no way imply enything about other Triplanars. But nobody

in this thread even try to refute my statment by repetition of the

same experiment. Instead they questioned my integrity , even

questioned if I own any Triplanar, then questioned my capability to

adjust whatever tonearm ,etc., etc. Well I am in this hobby for more

than 40 years and member of this forum since 2007.

The anti-skate is very difficult problem for pivoted tonearms. The

problem is the different force by different record radius as well

the different stylus shapes. Curiously this tracking ability test which

nobody seems to need or use can illuminate the working of anti-

skate. The arm/cart combo start to mistrack by certain microns

values. It start by the right channel. If,say, the right channel start

to ''buzz'' by 60 microns by increasing the anti-skate force this

can be corrected such that 60 microns will  sound ''pure''.

Now regarding Ikedas carts. My champion is FR-7fz. Next to the

fz is the Ikeda 9 the cantileverless kind. I don't believe that this

cart does not need anti-skate but this cart can't track more then

50 microns on any record. So this cart is very critical in regard to

records condition. But its dynamics can only be compared with

Deccas.

atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,793 posts
 
Folks, just so you know, 50 microns is about the same as 2 mils (which is how groove deflection is measured in the US if you have American-made LP mastering gear). Many systems use microns these days as many cutter systems are European-made.

2 mils (ever so slightly over 50microns, which is ~1.97 mils) is standard level for 0VU at 1KHz on our lathe and cutter system (Scully lathe with Westerx 3D cutter head, Westerex 1700 mastering electronics with custom tube amplifiers for the cutter head). **3db more is 4 mils.** This is because 3 db more requires double the amplifier power to cut the groove. That would work out to 100 microns.

Its really obvious why no-one other than Nandric has reported any tracking issues in this regard. Its because any arm made can track 2 mils (The older Technics 1200 machine we often use to test our cuts has no troubles doing it; we use this machine with an inexpensive cartridge to make sure that a groove we cut can be played by a common turntable).  His magical number of 70 microns is about 1.43 db over 0VU on our system. That's not a hard value for most arms (including the humble Technics) to do as well. 

The Triplanar has no worries doing this- we've brought lathe cuts back to the shop and played them on our system no worries. The big danger in cutting louder tracks is usually overcutting the groove, not the tracking of the playback at this level, so long as you don't have the usual dangers such as out-of-phase bass or the like (out-of-phase bass can knock the stylus out of the groove).  Since the groove noise tends to show up in the pressing process and even then is not a great concern if the mastering engineer did his job right, there really is very little call for going over 0VU when making the cut.

So even though 70 microns is a very slight increase in volume, its also a really rare thing to encounter (the exception being 12" singles on 45rpm and the like). This is because going over 0VU means that the engineer is likely going to have to take some time to set up the groove cut so no playback problems are encountered. For the most part, mastering houses like to avoid that sort of thing because the typical cost of mastering is about $400/hour.  So a mastering operation will take pains to avoid higher levels like that, even though most arms can play it no worries.

So the conclusion is one or more of the following:
1) the Triplanar to which Nandric refers was/is damaged
2) he does not know how to set up an arm
3) the story is made up.

IOW, the math just does not support his apparently ridiculous story.
nandric's avatar
nandric
4,086 posts
 

Well I left this forum but I need to react to atmasphere acusation that

I ''made up the (whole) story''. I can start with his conclusion(s) which

assume some premise. But he traw three conclusions which are

difficult to reconcile which each other as conjunctions. So either

something is wrong with his premisse or with his logic. However

let start with his premisses: ''Folks, just you know, 50 microns is

about the same as 2mils... (which) is standard level '' etc,.

But Nandric already stated that 50 microns are sufficient for ''normal

records'' (aka ''standard level'') and also that his Triplanar can track

50 microns but skips out the groove by 60 microns. Nandric who

has no idea how to adjust his Triplanar was somehow able to

adjust his FR-64 (also his Reed 3P) such that he got even 80

microns from his Benz LPS. Nandric was surprised with this result

and asked other members if their Triplanar's also can't track 60

microns. To his big surprise nobody answered this question because

nobody either  own's any test record or because they deed

not care for such experimente or trial. Even our electonic genius

atmasphere does not own any test records among his 4000 records.

 He was obviously also not able to lend one with tracking ability

test  from his friends and perform the same test which would take

about 5 minutes time. Instead he produced an whole technical

story which only few can understad. But this was my request. I

stated nothing about other Triplanars so I don't understand what

the fuss is about. Well if my Triplanar can track 20,30,40 and 50

microns why should my sample be defective? As I also mentioned

I own some low complience carts which can't track more than 50

microns . In my former post I mentioned my Ikeda 9 as example.

But I also mentioned my LPS and Windfeld which can track even

more than my ''magical 70 micron''. But can atmasphere say

where I made this statement about ''magical 70 microns''?

I think that my answer to his ''made up stories'' about Nandric

is suficient. I only repeated his own (technical) statements.

atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,793 posts
 
Any arm can do 70 microns or even 80. Its no big deal and Triplanars can do it too no worries.

I don't need a test LP; I can perform tests using my lathe.

The technical story is easy to understand. I'm sure most that have read this far followed it with ease.

The Triplanar is the most adjustable arm in the world. If a person can get it to track at 2 mils but not above that, something is wrong, but given that it can track at 2 mils, probably the setup and not the arm.




clearthink
1,421 posts
 
What is most likely it would appear from all that is written here is that the owner has either badly installed (aligned) tonearm or he has a defective tonearm but either way he can not tell the difference so everyone would agree I think that he needs the services of a qualified dealer in Music Reproduction Systems and should seek one out with particular experience with analogue/vinyl/turntable playback. Some individuals have trouble seeking help when they have a problem but there is no need to feel this way and it is not the owners fault that he is having bad performance even if it is a setup problem/error because that can be extremely difficult because of the tight tolerances required for proper vinyl playback in a Music Reproduction System. It would be best if he simply accepted this situation and then sought/obtained the help needed to resolve the issue and then he can move on to enjoy properly his Music Reproduction System which now is suffering because of this tonearm problem.
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