Thiel Owners

@nkonor and prof,

I tried and tried as well. But, in my own case, I came to the opposite conclusion - good, "killer" subs and and 2-way standmounts just might be the Only way to solve that problem...at least if you ask me. But, what I found was that all of that pushed me well into the DIY waters before I learned how to swim with it.

I have some amps that each have a suite of digital pro-tools (crossover, EQ, delay...everything except phase adjustment, which turned out to not be so critical for me) and with 3 of them (one stereo amp each for highs, mids and lows) I had the architecture in place to build my own speakers from scratch.

But with all that flexibility I found that I was, in a real way, suddenly freed from all the oppressive blunders and corner cutting that speaker manufacturers invariably make...crossover points that are too high or too low, crossover overlap or underlap, mismatched drivers, questionable crossover components or design complexity that’s intended to cover up for mismatched drivers, bad parts, etc, etc. But with an ability for me to design the speakers completely around the crossovers (from the start) instead of the other way round, I found I could finally have speakers (OB in my case) the way "I" would’ve made them, because...well, I Did.

All that led to my current setup, a pair of 15" Hawthorne Audio "Augies" paired with my own horn-version of Danny Ritchie’s "Wedgie" OB standmounts. But, again, no passive crossovers along with endless control over just where all the parameters are set is what made the difference...throw in some generous amounts of conditioning to settle the digital noise down and voila, it’s done. OB bass does load the room a little differently than box designs, but OB, IME, has the edge in everything else bass.

In this setup though, there IS no bass region any more...only bass instruments, with every bit as much tone, body, color, texture, harmonics, transparency and extension as instruments in any other portion of the range. As big as the Augies are, they hit hard and are more invisible here, from what I’ve ever heard, than any floorstanders I’ve experienced. Yes, all that took years of tweaking and a lot of off-roading on my part before I ever figured it all out, but it is possible to make this approach work and work well...even if all the challenges end up being not to be taken lightly.

In effect, I suppose I had to become my own designer.

Best regards,
John

@Norbert,

What I neglected to say above is that I think that your original point above really being about weak-sister sub/standmount systems having inherently more bass problems than they’re even worth is actually true and a perfectly valid one. But, I suppose that maybe the problem is less about the design goal than about the overall execution....the bass region being both so much more critical to the listening experience and technically difficult to get right than many of us may be, initially anyway, willing to deal with.

ivan_nosnibor,

I applaud your heroic efforts. Yes, truly full range is where it's at. A fairly reasonable facsimile for me took a pair of Wilsons and their 300lb+ sub. The music, the room, the air came alive! (23'x35'x14') room. Can only imagine what 2 of the beasts could do. My neighbors (even at low volume) lived in fear as their coffee cups and wine glasses vibrated on their table.

Lucky to be able to go to the Green Mill lounge to see Patricia Barber. Ricki Lee when she is at one of the small venues.

You became the designer/builder through your efforts. Took a longtime. When I get home; I just want to fire up the system and a "big fatty" and lay back.

The monitor/sub is ok for a weekend getaway. Even full range systems are just that; A System.

HP was right all along; Live Music and a night out is extremely pleasant. 

All our our efforts are still not the Real Deal. Again, I applaud your effort. Enjoy what You have accomplished.

Best Wishes on your continued Journey 

prof,

Confusion and Hesitation are problems I continually see on this site. Been there, done that.

Down sizing is not a great option.

Through this thread; l realized that I have had the Avalons for 12yrs. Changing from a 20yr Spectral owner to Pass amps is what made the Avalons sing even better.

 I have been considering a pair of Rockports for about 1 1/2 yrs now.
Alan Goodwin- Goodwin's Highend offered me a pair for 15k and I saw a pair offered in Denver for the same. Maybe when they get to 10-12k will I really start considering them.

But they are Not a downsizing. Just 50lb heavier and a "bit larger"

To replace the Avalons will take a larger Avalon or maybe the Rockports. But I will need to live with them for at least a year before I give up the Avalons I now have. 12yrs of a satisfying relationship that has even grown better since the Pass amps joined the system will be hard to replace.

Final caution, Do not let the 3.7s go without serious consideration.
You will play hell to replace them.

Best to you 
Norb

I was just thinking yesterday "Now I see why some people get into DIY."
That way you can attempt to build speakers that do the things you are looking for. If you have the talent, time and persistence (which I don’t...I have zero interest in DIY).

As for sub/monitor combos, I’m pretty much allergic to subwoofers - heard the combos in many set ups, including my own. No matter how many times I hear someone claim "it’s a seamless match" I immediately hear the sub and it annoys me. (The best blend I ever heard was actually a combo I owned: Quad ESL 63s that attached to Gradient subwoofers, specially designed to match the dipole radiation of the Quads. But that was a very room dominating system, like big, black room dividers).

It’s possible if I had enough time and resources on my hands I could end up with a subwoofer that mated well enough with some monitors, but it’s a no-go for my room. I’ve tried my best to make the technology invisible in the room (even my home theater speakers are covered in black velvet, against a black velvet screen wall). Subs would mean doubling the amount of speakers put in the room, when I’m looking to reduce (and I would not have the flexibility of placement options necessary to optimize the subs to blend them with stand mount speakers).

The problem is the Thiel 3.7s must be placed well into the room, where I like most of my speakers, for best sound and also to allow traffic into the room. The right speaker sits essentially blocking 1/2 the room entrance and if you saw a picture, you’d understand immediately why I’m trying to find a smaller speaker solution. Any inches I shave off the depth/height of the speaker helps.

I do think it’s possible smaller floor standers could satisfy me for several reasons. One is that they obviously help solve my aesthetics/ergonomics problem. Two, the 3.7s aren’t bass monsters to begin with. They are rated only down to 33Hz, yet I find this adequate to satisfy. The Joseph Perspectives, for instance, are similarly rated despite being much smaller and I found them generally satisfying in bass depth. Imaging was also terrific as well, though falling a bit short of the imaging size and precision of the Thiels.

The auditioning I had of the JM Reynaud monitors left me intrigued, but I have to say I really don’t care for their looks, especially their selection of wood finishes, so that’s a bit of a hurdle.

And on that aesthetic note: as I mentioned I have a pair of beautiful Harbeth speakers in Rosewood that I'm currently selling in another web site.  I figured that the Harbeths, being smaller and more traditional looking than the Thiel 3.7s would be an easier sell for her.  But she surprised me, saying she much preferred the look of the big Thiels in the room.  I find she's right: the room has a contemporary decor and the more modern, sleeker lines of the Thiels actually blend in better.   Hence...promise for the 2.7s.

I should have the Thiel 2.7s in house sometime after next weekend.