Hypex N core module

"Bruno is spot on with this. The usual rule of thumb is that very low amounts (under 4 db or so) is not harmful, but more than that is a problem; after about 20 db or so things start to settle down. 60db hasn't been practical until the introduction of class D (since gain is developed in an entirely different way); so I have no argument with this; my prior comments should be limited to traditional amps where making the kind of gain is impractical."

Thanks, Ralph. Your statement has cleared this issue up for me.

darknightdk,
     Although I use more mid-level class D amps than your Acoustic Imagery Atsah mono-blocks, your described impressions of your class D amps as "being extremely revealing, neutral and transparent and will take on the character of the source equipment, cables and material being played" closely resemble my impressions of my amps. Like you, I've been amazed how clearly audible the performance level of upstream components, cabling, power cords and recordings can be heard and judged as well as how clearly audible the affects of any changes to any of these can be heard and judged. The best description I can think of is the proverbial 'straight wire with gain'.

     This level of clarity and detail is not for everyone and any upstream weak links in your system will definitely be exposed.  I prefer this honest quality in my system rather than a masking or inaudibility of weak links; weak links can always be upgraded in quality but only if you're aware they exist.

Enjoy,
  Tim

" First you need a bit more clarification on just what "feedback" are you talking about, "global feedback" or Local feedback"? As both are very different.
"local" is a good thing if the output stage is designed right with minimum problems. "Global" is also ok if used sparingly and not use to correct big problems."

georgehifi,

     According to Bruno Putzeys, 
    "Local feedback with a bit of global feedback is, actually, identical to full global feedback -- mathematical fact."  
      I believe he utilizes this approach in his class D designs.  He also believes there is no such thing as 'too much feedback' as it pertains to class D amps.

Tim

 "Local feedback with a bit of global feedback is, actually, identical to full global feedback -- mathematical fact."  

You can have local without global, this is preferable in linear solid state, if the output stage is well designed you can do without the global and just have local around the input and driving stages, many good hi-end amps do this and it sounds much better for it, Gryphon, ME, Krell  ect.

He also believes there is no such thing as 'too much feedback' as it pertains to class D amps

That's his opinion, not by many noted others. And it looks like Ralph's going minimal FB as well.
Large amounts of global feedback used in linear amps is used in poor designs, to get good specs, the challenge is to get good specs with only a little local feedback.
 
Cheers George

Large amounts of global feedback used in linear amps is used in poor designs, to get good specs, the challenge is to get good specs with only a little local feedback.

George, I'm a bit uncomfortable with this statement- a lot depends on how its interpreted. I'm of the opinion that the amp should have good linearity open loop, then add the feedback once that is achieved. This would make the latter portion of the statement true.

But if the amp is to have good specs with only a little feedback, then this statement is likely false. Unless its a very small amount of feedback (under about 4 db) the application of feedback (even in a good design) will be detrimental. This is due to bifurcation of the input signal by the feedback itself (Bruno says that the harmonics 'show up out of the blue' but its easier to understand if you apply Chaos Theory). So the solution for a **good design** is to use a lot of feedback, hopefully on a design that already has good linearity to begin with before the application of feedback.

Sorry to go on- I just felt this needed clarification. 

George, I’m a bit uncomfortable with this statement-

Maybe I should have said in "most"

A little feedback should "only" be used to clean things up a little, not to make design blunders look better on test. And if designed very well, all that needed is "local feedback"

In tube amps that have average output transformers global feedback is used to reduce the transformers output impedance to get better damping factor specs, this is a band-aid fix, the output transformer should have it without the need of feedback, and the amp will sound better for it.

Global feedback compares output to input and try’s to correct any differences, trouble is that the output is already on it’s way to the speakers. And the more global feedback applied the more unstable an amp can become.

If you think about it Ralph, linear solid state amps that are well made but with global feed back and a bit of it, also have the same lifeless sound that many say Class-D has.

We have done an experiment ourselves back in the 70's on a very good amp Pass’s A20 Class-A, which we morphed into a 150w Class-A beast with water cooling (a two man lift), which had global feedback and sounded very good, then we changed it and made it local feedback and it sounded superb so much better it wasn’t funny.
http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_classa_20.pdf

Sorry to go on- I just felt this also needed to be said.

Cheers George