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Why are the vocals on some records hidden behind the music on my system?

Help! I am new to this forum, but have been into audio for over 45 years and have never had this problem before. I was lucky enough to come into some money and decided to use some of it to up grade my system for the first time in almost 30 yrs. The system consists of McIntosh MC-402, McIntosh C-100, McIntosh MCD-500, VPI HW19 MKIII, Soundsmith Aida, Furutech Ag-12 phono cable, Furutech silver head shell wires, Furutech interconnects and Furutech speaker cables (yes I like Furutech) and Raidho XT-3 speakers. Now on some albums the vocals are buried behind the music and you have a really hard time hearing the singer? Not all albums are voiced in this manner but enough that it is bothersome. I have a large dedicated man room (24 x 27) with minimum treatment. CDs sound just fine so I feel that it is with the phono preamp in the C-100? I have moved the speakers 100s of times and have them at 5' 8" apart and 8' 1" to the focal point and the soundstage is good and the vocals are better, but you still have to really listen hard to hear certain vocals on some albums. Most of my albums are 30 to 50 years old and have been cleaned with a sonic cleaner (best thing ever imho). Even some of my new heavy vinyl has this problem.
scooby2do
geoffkait's avatar
geoffkait
23,365 posts
 
When the VTA is off by 1/10 degree the distortion is up 100%. 
uberwaltz's avatar
uberwaltz
13,381 posts
 
Sounds like a nice find OP, sometimes it is so easy to chase around in ever decreasing circles only to realise you then have missed the  blindingly obvious...lol.
It is something I never even thought of asking but now you state it, I have just about always run my vtf at the top end of the spec for the cartridge used as it does seem to "dig deeper" into the music.
Of course all the time spent on carefull setup has not gone to waste for sure!
Now sit back, relax and enjoy the music!
williewonka
3,131 posts
 
@scooby2do - before you get playing records - sounds like you are adjusting tracking force to set the VTA?

The upper limit tracking weight should not be exceeded. You should not use it to set VTA/SRA

Most cartridges(but not all) are designed such that the top of the cartridge, that mates to the arm, should be parallel to the playing surface - this almost always ensures the SRA is correct or within acceptable tolerances

Some cartridges do respond better with a "Tail-up" or "Tail down" alignment, but that is accomplished using the VTA adjustment feature of the arm (if it has one) - not the cartridge tracking force

The following is from Soundsmith on  VTA/SRA

Stylus Rake Angle

Firstly, let me explain a bit about VTA vs. SRA. This is a complex subject, one that is one of the most misunderstood aspects of cartridge design, manufacturing and alignment.

VTA is a term that describes the CANTILEVER tracking angle. Soundsmith uses cantilevers with VARIED designs of VTA. The universe of cartridges have historically been made with varied cantilever tracking angles over the many years, from as low as 15 degrees to as high as 30 or more.  The angle of the cantilever is of little value, as it describes only the design of a particular cartridges use of a particular cantilever/stylus design. What is finally important is always the SRA, or Stylus Rake Angle. That must always be 2 degrees, raked back towards the direction of the incoming groove in the record – that matches the way most all records are made.  

Soundsmith uses varied cantilevers, with varied VTA’s; these can change slightly from unit to unit as there is often variation in the mounting of the diamond as well as the faceting of the diamond. Many cartridge manufacturers do not take this into account carefully, and as a result, the resultant SRA can vary badly from unit to unit. Michael Fremer did an expose’ some time ago showing a very expensive NEW cartridge where the VTA was correct, but the SRA was not “just a bit off”, - in fact, it was not even close to being -2 degrees, but was PLUS 10 degrees. He posted a picture of it.

Recently the use of USB microscopes has brought a plethora of “experts” who believe they are viewing the SRA correctly. Often, they are fooled by the optics, an issue also complicated by the fact that by not realizing that by viewing the “shank” of the diamond they are not viewing the actual facet angle which traces the groove walls. This facet edge position VARIES from diamond to diamond within a single diamond stylus design as the shaft of the diamond is not always held perfectly in the tool that is used to hold it while the facets are being made. It can vary as much as +/- 4 degrees easily – WITHOUT the ability of being easily observed.  

So, while folks believe that they obtaining correct SRA by viewing either the edge facet itself, the cantilever VTA or the diamond shaft, they can still be very far off. Knowing the VTA of a particular cantilever/diamond design is therefore of little value. Also of extreme importance is the fact that a STATIC view of SRA - versus how the cantilever moves UP when the record is playing, offers additional degrees of ERROR when using a USB microscope to determine proper SRA.

An interesting case is the diamond we use in many of our models, including the Sussurro. Many who view that diamond with optical aids are shocked to see that it is raked back by what appears to be as much as 20 degrees, and have questioned Soundsmith’s ability to mount a stylus.

This particular diamond we use in several of our designs has a “HIDDEN” facet at the bottom, thus returning the SRA to 2 degrees raked inward. A discussion of our stylus in this regard, and the explanation,  can be found here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=927659

The most important thing to know when setting up ANY cartridge is that if it lucky enough to have been made correctly, that when the cartridge is mounted, the tone arm should be parallel with the surface of the record. SRA adjustments up and down from there can be made, and there are many ways to do this by ear, with advice coming from many sources – sometimes with opposing views - all posted on the web.

Soundsmith cartridges differ from others in this respect; since we well recognize the many extreme variables in mounting, manufacturing and attaching diamonds and cantilevers – as well as the SUSPENSION differences from cartridge to cartridge in ALL types of cartridges, we make every effort to adjust each of our cartridges individually to the variable nature of the true SRA of each cantilever/stylus assembly.  

Therefore, we assume that people who know about mounting and aligning cartridges know that one always starts with the tone arm parallel to the record, and adjusts up or down from there to listening preference.  

So as you can see - the stylus angle should NOT be at 90 degrees.

It may sound better, but you may be doing damage to the stylus or your albums

Regards
pingvin
46 posts
 
One additional variable to consider: have you played with capacitance in the phono preamp? Like Fremer, I have found the high-output Soundsmith moving iron cartridges benefit from extra capacitive loading — the effect is to generally sound “fuller”, which might be what you are looking for. 
scooby2do OP
13 posts
 
williewonka- I think I see what you are getting at especially after read the info you took the time to post from soundsmith . I wasn't trying to adjust the vta/sra via vtf on purpose, but I guess that .2 grams extra might be enough to cause the cantilever to bend enough to do just that. And if that is the case then it would mean that the vta still is to high, right? So now the problem is how to actually find an accurate way to find 90 deg.for the tone arm and then make the up and down adjustments that will then fail in the vta. My thought is to find something that can be laid on tt that is known to be straight and then view the gap at both ends of the tonearm to this item when viewed from the bottom side (as long as the tone arm is a straight tube )  I have a laser level but I would have to build some kind of jig to mount it on to focus it on the plane along the pivot point of the tone arm. So I'll back the vtf back to 1.6 grams and start over again and hope for the best from there. I do acknowledge that the previous fix was more of a bandage instead of a real life fix. I'll let you know how this effort works out. Who knew HI-FIing was so hard (lol)
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