Thank you Folkfreak - I appreciate it.
I truly am swimming in the deep end with crazy vinyl hobby. Man is there a lot to learn. Holly smokes.
OK guys read below the line below:
Check this out. I was googling and reading about the Denon S1 Cart and came across this on Audio Circle - very smart people talking about the S1 and how matching to a proper built phonostage and loading the cart and the capacitance of the cables matters and are important because this is such a unique cart that seems to pose so odd balance challenges and i hardly understand it. I mean I can follow it but not sure I could ever employ any of this knowledge without at least partial translation into to newbie language from others.
Read this info I just read - I copy and paste from Audio Circle:
____________________
Audio Circle: Denon S1 and preamp considerations on: 16 Sep 2011, 09:58 pm »
First a little background - A few members here, participated in a group review of the DL-S1 on another forum. That thread is probably no longer there but it was very interesting, at least for the participants. While most of the reviewers has great results and thought it to be a wonderful cart, two of us had mixed feelings. I had a lot of trouble nailing down the the right load. I started out around 300 ohms, varied it up and down somewhat but couldn't get entirely satisfactory performance. On acoustic music it sounded as if there was a distortion that emphasized the overtones. It gave everything a goosed up sound that became fatiguing. I wasn't able to resolve that and finally mailed it to John TCG, for the next evaluation.
The DL-S1 is rather unusual in that it has 0.15mV output and 30 ohms impedance. It also tracks light, something like 1.3g, if I remember correctly. It has an aluminum cantilever and a special elliptical stylus. On an Audiogon thread there was a discussion about cantilevers and the DL-S1 was mentioned. Johnathan Carr (designer of Lyra carts) came on and mentioned that some aluminum cantilevered carts have extended response, and all of them do not resonate within the audible band. In response to my mentioning these loading problems, his response:
>The current DL-304 and DL-S1 are somewhat unusual.
>They also have very low output and 30 or 40 ohm impedance!
That is because the coil former is non-permeable, and therefore, rather inefficient in terms of generating electrical output from physical motion. But in return for that inefficiency, they avoid the distortions that all permeable cores inflict. All MMs and MIs have this distortion. So do most MCs that offer relatively high output voltage in comparison to their impedance. So do Raul's beloved step-up transformers (^o^). But non-permeable core MC cartridges like the DL-S1, FR-7, JVC L-1000, Benz-Micro Ruby et al, don't.
>Results seem very system dependant.
A cartridge like the DL-S1 prefers to have as few electrical contacts between itself and the phono stage input as possible, and a v-e-r-y good phono stage. In this sense, their requirements are no different from any other low-output MC. A little bit more extreme in degree, that is all.
That's interesting. I didn't know why those Denons had such high impedance and minuscule output. Some more considerations:
A "forgiving" phono stage is not what I would recommend for the DL-S1, nor for that matter, any other LOMC. The obviously desirable properties for a good MC phono stage are high gain, low noise, high immunity to RF, high overload margins (which implies high maximum output levels), and minimal deviation from the RIAA curve. Low capacity within the input stage benefits resolution and sound quality, but this partly conflicts with the requirement for low noise, so the phono stage designer must keep a sense of balance and trade offs.
One more critical requirement IMO is low capacitance between cartridge and phono stage, with the tonearm cable being the biggest contributor. The signal coils of the cartridge possess inductance, and this will react with any capacitance between the cartridge and phono stage to create a big resonant peak at ultrasonic frequencies (frequently in the RF range). This peak is much higher in frequency than any human can hear, but it can upset the circuitry of a phono stage that hasn't been designed with adequate consideration to RF or high-frequency overloading. This is eminently capable of of causing IMD at a much lower frequency, and this you can hear. This kind of IMD is quite obnoxious to the ear, since it is non-harmonically related to the LP signal, and therefore can sound outright dissonant.
Reducing the input impedance at the phono stage helps squash the RF resonant peak and thereby can reduce the phono stage's IMD that the ear finds so grating, but in return such heavy loading throttles the dynamics, transients and low-level resolution of the cartridge. Far more advantageous, IMO, to use a phono stage that doesn't need for the cartridge to be throttled down to make it listenable.
A phono stage designed according to this philosophy should have the side-effect of making records sound more quiet, because ticks and pops and tracking distortions will simply be treated as normal signals, and will not trigger circuit misbehavior.
FWIW, I have never had the need to load down any cartridge to under 100 ohms, for any phono stage that I have designed, and believe that I could afford considerably higher loading than 100 ohms with the DL-S1.
The loading situation with LOMCs is very different from MMs and MIs, where capacitance is needed to properly tailor the frequency response.
I note that some designers of MC cartridges and phono stages use quite massive amounts of capacitance to roll-off any ultrasonic peak from the coil inductance-cable capacitance resonant peak, but personally I have found this approach to take away more than it gives.
So there you have it. The loading down with < 100 ohms came from somebody on Asylum who loads it at 30 ohms. You lose half the output doing that. I didn't go below 100. My AHT phono has almost no capacitance. If I knew the situation I could have gotten a couple of caps and tried that. That overtone thing I heard was probably IMD. I guess system dependent was right after all. Now I think I know why.
______________________
Are you guys sure I am not way over my head with this cart?
I truly am swimming in the deep end with crazy vinyl hobby. Man is there a lot to learn. Holly smokes.
OK guys read below the line below:
Check this out. I was googling and reading about the Denon S1 Cart and came across this on Audio Circle - very smart people talking about the S1 and how matching to a proper built phonostage and loading the cart and the capacitance of the cables matters and are important because this is such a unique cart that seems to pose so odd balance challenges and i hardly understand it. I mean I can follow it but not sure I could ever employ any of this knowledge without at least partial translation into to newbie language from others.
Read this info I just read - I copy and paste from Audio Circle:
____________________
Audio Circle: Denon S1 and preamp considerations on: 16 Sep 2011, 09:58 pm »
First a little background - A few members here, participated in a group review of the DL-S1 on another forum. That thread is probably no longer there but it was very interesting, at least for the participants. While most of the reviewers has great results and thought it to be a wonderful cart, two of us had mixed feelings. I had a lot of trouble nailing down the the right load. I started out around 300 ohms, varied it up and down somewhat but couldn't get entirely satisfactory performance. On acoustic music it sounded as if there was a distortion that emphasized the overtones. It gave everything a goosed up sound that became fatiguing. I wasn't able to resolve that and finally mailed it to John TCG, for the next evaluation.
The DL-S1 is rather unusual in that it has 0.15mV output and 30 ohms impedance. It also tracks light, something like 1.3g, if I remember correctly. It has an aluminum cantilever and a special elliptical stylus. On an Audiogon thread there was a discussion about cantilevers and the DL-S1 was mentioned. Johnathan Carr (designer of Lyra carts) came on and mentioned that some aluminum cantilevered carts have extended response, and all of them do not resonate within the audible band. In response to my mentioning these loading problems, his response:
>The current DL-304 and DL-S1 are somewhat unusual.
>They also have very low output and 30 or 40 ohm impedance!
That is because the coil former is non-permeable, and therefore, rather inefficient in terms of generating electrical output from physical motion. But in return for that inefficiency, they avoid the distortions that all permeable cores inflict. All MMs and MIs have this distortion. So do most MCs that offer relatively high output voltage in comparison to their impedance. So do Raul's beloved step-up transformers (^o^). But non-permeable core MC cartridges like the DL-S1, FR-7, JVC L-1000, Benz-Micro Ruby et al, don't.
>Results seem very system dependant.
A cartridge like the DL-S1 prefers to have as few electrical contacts between itself and the phono stage input as possible, and a v-e-r-y good phono stage. In this sense, their requirements are no different from any other low-output MC. A little bit more extreme in degree, that is all.
That's interesting. I didn't know why those Denons had such high impedance and minuscule output. Some more considerations:
A "forgiving" phono stage is not what I would recommend for the DL-S1, nor for that matter, any other LOMC. The obviously desirable properties for a good MC phono stage are high gain, low noise, high immunity to RF, high overload margins (which implies high maximum output levels), and minimal deviation from the RIAA curve. Low capacity within the input stage benefits resolution and sound quality, but this partly conflicts with the requirement for low noise, so the phono stage designer must keep a sense of balance and trade offs.
One more critical requirement IMO is low capacitance between cartridge and phono stage, with the tonearm cable being the biggest contributor. The signal coils of the cartridge possess inductance, and this will react with any capacitance between the cartridge and phono stage to create a big resonant peak at ultrasonic frequencies (frequently in the RF range). This peak is much higher in frequency than any human can hear, but it can upset the circuitry of a phono stage that hasn't been designed with adequate consideration to RF or high-frequency overloading. This is eminently capable of of causing IMD at a much lower frequency, and this you can hear. This kind of IMD is quite obnoxious to the ear, since it is non-harmonically related to the LP signal, and therefore can sound outright dissonant.
Reducing the input impedance at the phono stage helps squash the RF resonant peak and thereby can reduce the phono stage's IMD that the ear finds so grating, but in return such heavy loading throttles the dynamics, transients and low-level resolution of the cartridge. Far more advantageous, IMO, to use a phono stage that doesn't need for the cartridge to be throttled down to make it listenable.
A phono stage designed according to this philosophy should have the side-effect of making records sound more quiet, because ticks and pops and tracking distortions will simply be treated as normal signals, and will not trigger circuit misbehavior.
FWIW, I have never had the need to load down any cartridge to under 100 ohms, for any phono stage that I have designed, and believe that I could afford considerably higher loading than 100 ohms with the DL-S1.
The loading situation with LOMCs is very different from MMs and MIs, where capacitance is needed to properly tailor the frequency response.
I note that some designers of MC cartridges and phono stages use quite massive amounts of capacitance to roll-off any ultrasonic peak from the coil inductance-cable capacitance resonant peak, but personally I have found this approach to take away more than it gives.
So there you have it. The loading down with < 100 ohms came from somebody on Asylum who loads it at 30 ohms. You lose half the output doing that. I didn't go below 100. My AHT phono has almost no capacitance. If I knew the situation I could have gotten a couple of caps and tried that. That overtone thing I heard was probably IMD. I guess system dependent was right after all. Now I think I know why.
______________________
Are you guys sure I am not way over my head with this cart?