Thiel 2.3 vs 2.4

Cinematic-Thanks again for your time and info.
I am not looking for a reason to buy the 2.3's
Actually,Im still very happy everytime I hear my 3.5's,especially now that I have a killer front end.
I love these speakers and I can understand why they have a 'cult following'
Being the audiophool I am though,Im always looking to upgrade.Thats the bottom line.
I don't seek the approval of others in what I buy.I left that behind in H.S. :~) I like to hear others opinions and I respect yours and I thank you for the time you have spent on this thread.

The reason I am inquiring about the 2.3 is I have read elsewhere they sound quite similar to the 2.4
When I spent the day at Thiel,while my 3.5's were getting re-built I listened to the 2.4's in the incredible Thiel,main listening room.
If anyone has been in that room to hear music,you know what I mean by incredible!
The 2.4's had the new Thiel sub delivering the bottom end.
When my speakers were done,they were set up in the same position as the 2.4's minus the sub.
The 2.4's clearly played louder.That was my first impression.
They imaged better but not by the magnitude one might expect.
The bass was tighter,deeper and more tactile.But then again the sub was used with the 2.4's
The soundstage was (best guess) 15-20% larger which I felt were the 2.4's best quality.
I would have loved to hear my 3.5's with the sub as I imagine they would have sounded better than they already did during this demo.
Overall,of course the 2.4's are a better speaker,esp.with the sub.In fact,I would say a good sub would be a must have with 'most' Thiel's
I felt the demo showed me the best one can get out of both speakers.
2.4's 5 stars
3.5's 3.5 stars
I feel a well designed 'vintage' speaker can compete or beat out a modern speaker.I also dont feel current speaker technology or modern drivers are 'all that'
Im not referring to the 3.5-2.4 demo either as my basis for this claim.

You wrote "lots of people like technically bad speakers" Are you referring to the 'Best Buy' shopper or audiophile?
Technically bad means to me,bad sounding.
Or are you implying 'technically bad' speakers can sound good?
Am I wrong in assuming you feel you have the experience to tell a good speaker from a bad speaker and many audiophiles (or even some Best Buy buyers) can't hear the differences?

Sir,I do respect your opinion and Im not attempting to stir anything up (me?)
Im just trying to figure out where you are coming from.
Im assuming you dont like Thiel in general and you even dislike their flagship 7.2
I have read a few times "Thiel,love them or hate them" Of course this could apply to most any audio product as well,couldnt it?
Krell is hated and loved.. aghh! Im bored today and rambling on...
I think I'll end this and play with my stereo.
I have a new SACD 'Madman Across The Water' that sounds AWESOME! Anyone disagree? :~)
I have a new PC to check out also.
Shoot,I have to take out the trash today I just remembered.Christmas trash is a drag!
Anyone listening to tunes today,enjoy!!

Cinematic,

I hate to keep rehashing this but...
The consensus has backed you up? Maybe two people on this board. Let's add up shall we?

www.audioreview.com : 65 reviews, 4.5 average rating http://tinyurl.com/4vudj

Stereophile: "CS2.3 is a superb loudspeaker."

TAS: "The 2.3 is an outstanding loudspeaker."

Soundstage: "Highly recommended...you may have just found your dream speaker."

HiFi Test (Germany): "The CS2.3 is greatly enjoyable."

Home Theater: "The CS2.3 is so good, it'll remind you why you got into this hobby in the first place."

Stereo (Germany)"This is the result when accurate sound and audiophile quality feeling come together...astonishing three dimmensional character...Rated "Excellent".

So, you don't like the speaker, I can respect that. What I don't respect is your claim that it is a bad design and also bad sounding. And let's not get into the "they are only giving good reviews for the ad revenue" nonsense. Let's face it, Jim Thiel knows a bit more about speaker design than all the pundits on this board put together. I don't think they are perfect, the highs a still a bit strong for me, but they consistantly make the best overall package for my tastes, primarily classical music. I have gone to countless live concerts and use that as my speaker quality yardstick. As to the 7-9db dip in the upper mids, I have a few test CDs and a RatShack sound meter and it does not show up in my room, if anything they are a bit up in that range thus giving the slightly bright sound. Perhaps if I made the measurement a standing ear level, but they were designed to be heard much lower and no closer than 8 feet. You don't like them? Fine, but please don't keep pushing this "terrible loudspeaker" stuff. Hook them up to an amp that can't handle the load, play them too loud, sit too close or too high and they may sound bad but that is not the speaker's fault. I do think they put a fair number of restrictions on the listener so are clearly not for everyone, especially hard rock fans, but for those who favor clear sound, very low distortion and boxless sound they can't be beat.

Tim

Tim

Technically questionable speakers that people like and have endless positive reviews.

Sonus Faber Amati Homage
Aerial 10T (recent versions)
Eggleston Works Andra
Talon Audio --
Krell Lat-1
Martin Logan Prodigy

I cannot begin to fill in all the holes and all the factors that I feel justify my statements. I did not arrive at the comments arbitrarily and don't think you think that I did.
We have a good repore going here but this is the frustration of the internet. I cannot have you here to demonstrate what I'm talking about. Something I have done many many times. I don't run my (keyboard) mouth unless I have converted several people through demonstrating what I'm talking about before I go on and on. That's why I won't back down because other people have soldified my points of view through there actions and their own comments. So my opinion is based on others...many others.
I don't like to kid myself, its a waste of time.

This conversation outlines why buying audio is so difficult.
We are discussing a brand that by all rights is an outstanding company with press and happy customers to back them up. My job was to sell their product and not being an ordinary fellow I'm always looking at the strengths of a product and unique features that make it sellable and explaining it in a way that would put my customer out of reach of my competition. Something I do very well, and Thiel was an endless stream of positive advantages.

Thiel had everything going for it, looks, reputation, world class customer service and brochures. And yet in 3 years I sold 1 pair of 2.3's. Having been a Thiel owner only 5 years before my enthusiasm for the product was very high. I can tell you all the things I tried (it would boggle your mind) to make these speakers sound so that when a person with Thiel on the brain would sit down and go oh yeah box them up! That day never came for the .5, 1.5, PCS, 2.3, 6, or 7.2. CS3.6 managed to pull it off on occasion. Thiel came to visit us and they were astounded by the lengths we had gone through to sell their product. I'm talking Kathy Gornik fellas. We moved the store around tried all the equipment we had and some equipment we didn't have to make them right. The day never came. The speaker never impressed the listener enough not to ask the deadly question. "What else do you have in this price range."

What we had was a speaker that was better in every way, and the masses agreed by immediately plunking down the cash to cast their vote. Thiel exhausted me, because no matter what I did they never sold. Which is unbelievable considering the brand that people were buying at the time had none of the things going for it on the marketing side that the Thiel had. I still shake my head today, we did so poorly with that brand.

If I was a terrible salesperson, I wouldn't have sold anything. But the fact is I sold almost everybody, in the end something else.

That's my experience.

Notice no judgement on sound quality, admittedly I have put 2 and 2 together to arrive at my comments and the final straw is would I buy that product...

Cinematic,

I respect your experience and do not doubt you heard what you heard. I just could not figure out why it conflicted with so much opinion in the other direction. I know popularity means little in the end, just look at the top box office movies and books. I am actually listening to new speakers at this point, not that I am unhappy with the Thiels, but just like to see what is new that may be better. The Gallo Ref 3s sounded pretty good but, as with the Thiels (and all speakers actually), you never really know how they sound until you get them home. And, few high end dealers I found allow returns. But, that is a topic for another thread. Thanks for your input on this one.

Tim

Cinematic-
Now I think I know where you are coming from.
You couldnt move Thiel and you're possibly bitter for this reason?
If all most all of your customers passed on buying Thiel (you wrote you sold one 2.3 in 3 years) how then did other dealers move them?
It's no wonder Kathy was astounded!
There are many 2.3's out there.I'll have to contact Shari to get the exact number.
The only Thiel speaker (other than the 2.4) you like is the 3.6 which BTW you mentioned you could sell.
Yet you like the 3.6 but not the 7.2? I havent heard a 7.2 but I imagine it beats the snot out of the 3.5,which I have heard.

Your list of 'technically bad' speakers, which you changed to 'technically questionable' are owned by many hard core,very experienced audiophiles.
What do you hear,or not hear in these speakers others dont? Is it the specs. you dont like?
Many audio products have poor specs. but sound sensational.
Finally,and this is my last post.
I think you have done a diservice to Thiel by publically trashing their speakers.
You (or your boss) were once a represenative for them and I believe it is in bad taste to bash a product one sells or sold in the past.
My final opinion is,the reason you couldnt move them had nothing to do with the Thiel speakers.
Thank you to everyone who participated in this thread..